The root of this is the Harvard Jew Crisis of the early 1900s, which redesigned the admissions process away from merit. This is the basis of the modern practice at the Ivy Leagues. It was not done secretly, publicized by the university's President in speeches, and had little backlash.
It is in fact a result of Asian Americans having many similarities to Jews that they are being discriminated against, but they were not the original target. It will be interesting to see if they were ever explicitly targeted, but so far it appears to be collateral damage as times changed but the process's foundation has not.
Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court
41–50 of 133 posts
Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not sure you want that, because then you end up with something like the Iowa system. (Basically, everyone is admitted, because every school optimizes for getting the required score. It's nigh impossible to graduate high school in Iowa WITHOUT the required 245 points for the Iowa schools.) Giving an explicit formula for scoring, along with a required score, has historically been the same as letting everyone in, becaus…
Here’s how it was in the old country: Score = (score from exam at the school you want to go to * 2 + GPA + high school Math grade) / 4 That’s for engineering school. Every school has a different formula and holds its own exams. But the formula is public. Sort all candidates, draw a line. When some of the selected people chose different schools, draw another line after a month. We didn’t have an equivalent of SAT. But…
That's not how Iowa works. You get the 245 points, you get in. Full stop. It's law.
It's a system that can't be "gamed". (And, coincidentally, doesn't need to be gamed.) The idea was that it would take all the race, and the extra-curriculars, and the subjective stuff out of the system. And it did. But it also gave everyone admittance. Which is fine. Maybe everyone should get into college? I don't know?
My point is, when you have a set target, it's pretty much guaranteed that after a few years nearly everyone will be hitting that target. It's the nature of the beast.
Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court
#43Why on God's green earth are we evaluating candidates to a major university based on how well they're "grappling with [their] sexual identity"?
I think you're coming at this from the wrong perspective. The fact that someone is grappling with their sexual identity isn't by itself a qualification. On the other hand, if in the essays or interviews you get the feeling that this candidate has matured beyond his/her peers as a result of it, or if this candidate demonstrates resilience dealing with growing up this way in an extremely conservative culture, then you'…
At that point why specifically call out sexuality? Why not just say “candidates whom have matured behind their peers because of difficult life experiences”?
Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
"I don't like what they seem to be doing, but Harvard is a private university - they should be able to recruit who they want to based on their own criteria" How is this argument different than supporting a private restaurant not serving e.g. Chinese people since they "are a private company that should be able to serve whom they want based on their own criteria?"
It's not. And as a person of color, I'll tell you that laws preventing discrimination offered me and my family zero protections (specifically with respect to restaurants) in the post CRA-III era.
CRA-III?
Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court
#45I thought the ACLU had a rather interesting take on this issue: "Make no mistake: A lawsuit against Harvard that's purported to represent the interests of Asian-Americans would, if successful, primarily benefit white students. #DefendDiversity"
https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1051626960537808898
Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not sure you want that, because then you end up with something like the Iowa system. (Basically, everyone is admitted, because every school optimizes for getting the required score. It's nigh impossible to graduate high school in Iowa WITHOUT the required 245 points for the Iowa schools.) Giving an explicit formula for scoring, along with a required score, has historically been the same as letting everyone in, becaus…
Similarly in Wisconsin, and possibly any state with a flagship public university. Even if the point system isn't known, everybody gets into one of the Wisconsin system colleges. But everybody doesn't go to those colleges. First, the number of positions is limited, though I don't know how the limit is set or if it actually fills up. Second, the top kids at the top high schools in the state go to the Ivy's, or other se…
I went to UW. The Madison campus. And the limit is never technically hit. (Though if you want to live on campus, obviously, it's first come, first served. So you may end up having to live off campus if you dilly-dally.)
Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court
#47> Harvard has testified that race, when considered in admissions, can only help, not hurt, a student’s chances of getting in. So if your race matches their preference they improve your odds of admittance. Since the number of admissions is fixed this reduces the odds of those who have a race that doesn’t match their preference. IANAL but it sounds like Harvard just admitted that they were guilty.
> IANAL but it sounds like Harvard just admitted that they were guilty. I don't like what they seem to be doing, but Harvard is a private university - they should be able to recruit who they want to based on their own criteria. Of course, it's not a binary thing: universities in the US receive lots of subsidies from local states, so there is a certain expectation of fairness. Maybe the right thing to do would be to c…
Except that this was specifically what private universities (and private everything else’s) were required by law to stop doing 50 year ago, when their preferred race was white. There’s a LONG precedent against private institutions discriminating based on race in the United States - it just hasn’t been enforced evenly.
Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court
#48To those who have a problem with Harvard's alleged discrimination. Do you think female-only schools should exist? In addition, would you agree with an admission policy that only uses SAT and AP scores? Grades inherently are subjective and can unfairly be given on the basis of race on the K-12 level, so that's helpful. Harvard should just model China and make the SAT the only criterion. If there are too many people wi…
Goodhart's Law: “When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.”
SATs will quickly become one of the poorest indicators for success.
Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court
#49The answer to this is so simple: rather than trying to optimize algorithms for admission, we need to decrease the demand for admissions to these schools.
1. Increase the supply. More seats. More schools. More teachers. More locations.
2. Decrease the demand. Better alternatives. Vocational schools. On the job training. Not using degree a job criteria.
Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
> IANAL but it sounds like Harvard just admitted that they were guilty. I don't like what they seem to be doing, but Harvard is a private university - they should be able to recruit who they want to based on their own criteria. Of course, it's not a binary thing: universities in the US receive lots of subsidies from local states, so there is a certain expectation of fairness. Maybe the right thing to do would be to c…
"I don't like what they seem to be doing, but Harvard is a private university - they should be able to recruit who they want to based on their own criteria" How is this argument different than supporting a private restaurant not serving e.g. Chinese people since they "are a private company that should be able to serve whom they want based on their own criteria?"
How is what Harvard is doing supported by that example? They are giving preferential treatment to certain groups or ethnicities, not actively discriminating against any certain group. If you went to a restaurant and someone that was in line after you got seated before simply because of their ethnicity, that's not the same as not being served at all right?