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Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

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Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#41

Post by sethammons »

ravitation wrote: post #14
xt00 wrote: post #5

This will help with recruitment, but the sentiment that new workers will essentially get paid the same as older workers is going to immediately be a big sticking point. From watching the Boeing union strikes over many years, I get the sense that once a labor force unionizes they setup their own structure for pay and get that signed off -- where they have seniority and things like that. But it also means the company b…

A company doesn't become adversarial with its workforce because of unions; a company is forced to treat its workforce more as an equal because of unions. The adversarial nature of the relationship between a workforce and its company is not a result of unions, it exists without unions. It's just that, without unions, companies are free to largely ignore the demands of individual workers. Control over compensation and…

> A company doesn't become adversarial with its workforce because of unions; a company is forced to treat its workforce more as an equal because of unions.

I'm not convinced. My brother's work has a warehouse. The warehouse unionized (a large push by two folks who are no longer there). Most of the warehouse workers are now making _less_ than they were before due to union dues. There are guys that my brother would love to promote and reward with better pay, but the union does not allow that. The union demands such-n-such, the business pushes back. The workers are in the middle and get shitall. This union (at least) exists to grow itself and for no other reason.

Now the "office personnel" are not allowed to talk anything union related with the "warehouse folks." It went from "us" to "us" and "them." The office people have to be careful on how they say anything or a union rep can file grievances. When you have to watch your behavior in fear of retribution, I'd say that is adversarial and I would say this happened due to the union.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#42

Post by sir_branson »

mdgrech23 wrote: post #39
ravitation wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company doesn't become adversarial with its workforce because of unions; a company is forced to treat its workforce more as an equal because of unions. The adversarial nature of the relationship between a workforce and its company is not a result of unions, it exists without unions. It's just that, without unions, companies are free to largely ignore the demands of individual workers. Control over compensation and…

Spoken like someone who very little actual real experience with a union.

Spoken like someone with very little real experience in a union.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#43

Post by crazygringo »

okr wrote: post #35
cortesoft wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, can't this argument be made against ALL worker protections? We don't need OSHA, workers should decide for themselves how dangerous they want to be. We don't need minimum wage laws, workers should decide. We don't need overtime laws, let workers decide. We have seen what happens when you remove all restrictions on how employers can treat workers - workers get horribly abused and often times die. If you think t…

It would be nice to hear opinions from the workers at amazon. I find it very compelling to agree with you. But i also like to make my own decision, to negotiate. My ideal, at least. And i expect my elders and seniors to teach me about the dangers in this world. And I also think, its a two way street. I will not risk my life, and Amazon does not want dead people. And is US and Dubai really comparable? Why do people go…

> And i expect my elders and seniors to teach me about the dangers in this world.

My personal elders and seniors don't know the first thing about how to judge whether workplace chemicals would be harmful to me or not.

They're just other human beings, very fallible like myself.

As long at it seems decently run, I trust a government agency full of experts and reams of research over the elders and seniors I happen to know personally, who are generally totally lacking in both expertise and knowledge in most areas, any day.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#44

Post by okr »

Daishiman wrote: post #36
okr wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be nice to hear opinions from the workers at amazon. I find it very compelling to agree with you. But i also like to make my own decision, to negotiate. My ideal, at least. And i expect my elders and seniors to teach me about the dangers in this world. And I also think, its a two way street. I will not risk my life, and Amazon does not want dead people. And is US and Dubai really comparable? Why do people go…

> And is US and Dubai really comparable? Why do people go so far, to work there? Don't they tell their relatives at home, how shitty it is? Why are they going? Why do they risk it? And who am i to judge their decision making? Because people taking this up live in even worse conditions in some of the most abject poverty there is and they have no way to climb up the social ladder that doesn't involve saving some money…

And here i am confused. So from their perspective, they can achieve something better for themselves, with that risk. And from my perspective, i see it as abuse of their situation, because iam on a different cushion level, where i dont have to risk my life for my job.

Good luck to them!

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#45

Post by s73v3r_ »

whoisjuan wrote: post #32
savanaly wrote: post #2

Impossible to judge the effect until someone investigates the relative sizes of the lost bonuses and the increased hourly wage. I did read Amazon's claim in the article that the increase outweighs the decrease. But I would like to see a journalist confirm that and also report on how big the difference is and whether it affects certain types of workers differently than others.

I don't think there's anything to judge here. Amazon said multiple times that with bonuses and stock awards their average compensation was well above any compensation for fulfillment workers in the sector. People thought this was bullshit/paper money and kept demanding for a higher hourly wage. So Amazon did the logical thing. It increased the hourly wage, removed a highly unappreciated and misunderstood form of sala…

Amazon is a trillion dollar company. They did not have to make any decision.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#46

Post by okr »

crazygringo wrote: post #43
okr wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be nice to hear opinions from the workers at amazon. I find it very compelling to agree with you. But i also like to make my own decision, to negotiate. My ideal, at least. And i expect my elders and seniors to teach me about the dangers in this world. And I also think, its a two way street. I will not risk my life, and Amazon does not want dead people. And is US and Dubai really comparable? Why do people go…

> And i expect my elders and seniors to teach me about the dangers in this world. My personal elders and seniors don't know the first thing about how to judge whether workplace chemicals would be harmful to me or not. They're just other human beings, very fallible like myself. As long at it seems decently run, I trust a government agency full of experts and reams of research over the elders and seniors I happen to kn…

I do not mean my personal elders, or, if you will, my parents or friends.

What i mean is, in whatever workplace i worked so far, there were people telling me, what not to do. Surely playing around with me at first, but always keeping me away from dangers.

In the long run, well, i agree, that there are many things, that are not very obvious to me. Like office work, sitting in the chair all day, not moving, looking at screens all the time. But iam sure my boss does not mean no harm. He surely looks more at his phone than me on a screen. We get smarter over time, i hope.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#47

Post by InTheArena »

ravitation wrote: post #14
xt00 wrote: post #5

This will help with recruitment, but the sentiment that new workers will essentially get paid the same as older workers is going to immediately be a big sticking point. From watching the Boeing union strikes over many years, I get the sense that once a labor force unionizes they setup their own structure for pay and get that signed off -- where they have seniority and things like that. But it also means the company b…

A company doesn't become adversarial with its workforce because of unions; a company is forced to treat its workforce more as an equal because of unions. The adversarial nature of the relationship between a workforce and its company is not a result of unions, it exists without unions. It's just that, without unions, companies are free to largely ignore the demands of individual workers. Control over compensation and…

This is not always true. For example, the union relationship with Eastern Airline, where the union decided that it was better to eventually kill the airline in exchange for a better contract today. (Reference - Hard Landing by Thomas Petzinger). Unions are yet another human organization. Like all human organizations, it in-enviably becomes about sustaining itself, and that sustaining and power structure can become as destructive as corporations themselves to individual rights when the institution is opposed to the something the individual wants or needs.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#48

Post by oh-kumudo »

andrestan wrote: post #12
crooked-v wrote: post #3

Bonuses for warehouse workers, presumably throughput-based, seem like a way to optimize for maximum output at the expense of worker health. It's good that those are going away.

Why? Are the workers completely and totally incapable of deciding for themselves what the proper tradeoff between increased income and whatever decreased health comes from working harder?? What is your calculus that helped you arrive at it being the case that the now former monetary incentives' value was outweighed by the decrease in worker health that you have perceived?

I mean you can't have both.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#49

Post by InTheArena »

irrational wrote: post #34
stephengillie wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how grocery unions (like UFCW) operate. There isn't a lot of debate about health and safety, mostly thanks to government agencies. Most of what the union does is operate the health insurer, and push for pay raises & fewer pay scale steps.

Are unions anti universal healthcare? It seems like they would be since it would be one less thing they could negotiate about.

They were in the Obamacare debate. Unions fought like hell against the Cadillac care provisions because it did in fact limit health care.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#50

Post by rukittenme »

s73v3r_ wrote: post #45
whoisjuan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there's anything to judge here. Amazon said multiple times that with bonuses and stock awards their average compensation was well above any compensation for fulfillment workers in the sector. People thought this was bullshit/paper money and kept demanding for a higher hourly wage. So Amazon did the logical thing. It increased the hourly wage, removed a highly unappreciated and misunderstood form of sala…

Amazon is a trillion dollar company. They did not have to make any decision.

Amazon is valued at $1 trillion but Amazon does not have $1 trillion. Amazon's total assets are only about $131 billion. $20 billion of that is cash.
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