Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#31

Post by Spooky23 » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 10:38 PM UTC

notfromhere wrote: post #17

andrestan wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Are the workers completely and totally incapable of deciding for themselves what the proper tradeoff between increased income and whatever decreased health comes from working harder?? What is your calculus that helped you arrive at it being the case that the now former monetary incentives' value was outweighed by the decrease in worker health that you have perceived?

Because people have a long-established inability to fully realize the long-term impacts of things when compared to short-term benefit?

Wait, you mean that drinking cases of Diet Coke and beer all day and working 18 hours a day for your 20s May have long term health impacts?

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#32

Post by whoisjuan » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 10:40 PM UTC

savanaly wrote: post #2

Impossible to judge the effect until someone investigates the relative sizes of the lost bonuses and the increased hourly wage. I did read Amazon's claim in the article that the increase outweighs the decrease. But I would like to see a journalist confirm that and also report on how big the difference is and whether it affects certain types of workers differently than others.

I don't think there's anything to judge here. Amazon said multiple times that with bonuses and stock awards their average compensation was well above any compensation for fulfillment workers in the sector. People thought this was bullshit/paper money and kept demanding for a higher hourly wage.

So Amazon did the logical thing. It increased the hourly wage, removed a highly unappreciated and misunderstood form of salary and simplified the compensation scheme so it could actually rebalance this value into a more predictable, easy to understand and liquid compensation. This should help anyone that felt exploited and of-course is going to piss off the people who actually understood the variable portion of their compensation and the ones who were already above the 15 USD mark.

I don't think what were people expecting? Hourly wage raise + stock + bonuses? I mean I don't want to sound like a capitalist pig, but that doesn't make sense, especially when we are talking about this kind of job. People deserve livable wages but also they deserve to get recognized economically when they pursue advanced studies and put the effort to get into jobs that require more specialized skills.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#33

Post by NeedMoreTea » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 10:40 PM UTC

Much more detail, with figures, although for UK Amazon workers here: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/oct/03/amazon-of...

The TL;DR for the UK is they lose over half the pay rise from losing the bonuses.

They got one share, worth £1,500 or $1,960 after every year, and an additional share once every five years. That can be tax-free if held for 2 years.

They also lose the possibility of cash bonuses for meeting targets.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#34

Post by irrational » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 10:45 PM UTC

stephengillie wrote: post #8

xt00 wrote: post #5

This will help with recruitment, but the sentiment that new workers will essentially get paid the same as older workers is going to immediately be a big sticking point. From watching the Boeing union strikes over many years, I get the sense that once a labor force unionizes they setup their own structure for pay and get that signed off -- where they have seniority and things like that. But it also means the company b…

This is how grocery unions (like UFCW) operate. There isn't a lot of debate about health and safety, mostly thanks to government agencies. Most of what the union does is operate the health insurer, and push for pay raises & fewer pay scale steps.

Are unions anti universal healthcare? It seems like they would be since it would be one less thing they could negotiate about.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#35

Post by okr » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 10:51 PM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #20

andrestan wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Are the workers completely and totally incapable of deciding for themselves what the proper tradeoff between increased income and whatever decreased health comes from working harder?? What is your calculus that helped you arrive at it being the case that the now former monetary incentives' value was outweighed by the decrease in worker health that you have perceived?

I mean, can't this argument be made against ALL worker protections? We don't need OSHA, workers should decide for themselves how dangerous they want to be. We don't need minimum wage laws, workers should decide. We don't need overtime laws, let workers decide. We have seen what happens when you remove all restrictions on how employers can treat workers - workers get horribly abused and often times die. If you think t…

It would be nice to hear opinions from the workers at amazon.

I find it very compelling to agree with you. But i also like to make my own decision, to negotiate. My ideal, at least. And i expect my elders and seniors to teach me about the dangers in this world. And I also think, its a two way street. I will not risk my life, and Amazon does not want dead people.

And is US and Dubai really comparable? Why do people go so far, to work there? Don't they tell their relatives at home, how shitty it is? Why are they going? Why do they risk it? And who am i to judge their decision making?

Many confusing signals i receive.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#36

Post by Daishiman » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 10:55 PM UTC

okr wrote: post #35

cortesoft wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, can't this argument be made against ALL worker protections? We don't need OSHA, workers should decide for themselves how dangerous they want to be. We don't need minimum wage laws, workers should decide. We don't need overtime laws, let workers decide. We have seen what happens when you remove all restrictions on how employers can treat workers - workers get horribly abused and often times die. If you think t…

It would be nice to hear opinions from the workers at amazon. I find it very compelling to agree with you. But i also like to make my own decision, to negotiate. My ideal, at least. And i expect my elders and seniors to teach me about the dangers in this world. And I also think, its a two way street. I will not risk my life, and Amazon does not want dead people. And is US and Dubai really comparable? Why do people go…

> And is US and Dubai really comparable? Why do people go so far, to work there? Don't they tell their relatives at home, how shitty it is? Why are they going? Why do they risk it? And who am i to judge their decision making?

Because people taking this up live in even worse conditions in some of the most abject poverty there is and they have no way to climb up the social ladder that doesn't involve saving some money with this kind of work even at the expense of their physical safety.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#37

Post by egypturnash » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 10:56 PM UTC

irrational wrote: post #34

stephengillie wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how grocery unions (like UFCW) operate. There isn't a lot of debate about health and safety, mostly thanks to government agencies. Most of what the union does is operate the health insurer, and push for pay raises & fewer pay scale steps.

Are unions anti universal healthcare? It seems like they would be since it would be one less thing they could negotiate about.

No longer having to beg the bosses for healthcare would mean they could spend their time and energy pressing the bosses for other concessions.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#38

Post by kmkemp » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 10:58 PM UTC

whoisjuan wrote: post #32

savanaly wrote: post #2

Impossible to judge the effect until someone investigates the relative sizes of the lost bonuses and the increased hourly wage. I did read Amazon's claim in the article that the increase outweighs the decrease. But I would like to see a journalist confirm that and also report on how big the difference is and whether it affects certain types of workers differently than others.

I don't think there's anything to judge here. Amazon said multiple times that with bonuses and stock awards their average compensation was well above any compensation for fulfillment workers in the sector. People thought this was bullshit/paper money and kept demanding for a higher hourly wage. So Amazon did the logical thing. It increased the hourly wage, removed a highly unappreciated and misunderstood form of sala…

Saying that their compensation is higher than competitors in the sector says nothing about whether they will be paying out more total dollars after the changes than before.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#39

Post by mdgrech23 » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 10:59 PM UTC

ravitation wrote: post #14

xt00 wrote: post #5

This will help with recruitment, but the sentiment that new workers will essentially get paid the same as older workers is going to immediately be a big sticking point. From watching the Boeing union strikes over many years, I get the sense that once a labor force unionizes they setup their own structure for pay and get that signed off -- where they have seniority and things like that. But it also means the company b…

A company doesn't become adversarial with its workforce because of unions; a company is forced to treat its workforce more as an equal because of unions. The adversarial nature of the relationship between a workforce and its company is not a result of unions, it exists without unions. It's just that, without unions, companies are free to largely ignore the demands of individual workers. Control over compensation and…

Spoken like someone who very little actual real experience with a union.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers Lose Bonuses, Stock Awards for Raises

#40

Post by com2kid » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 11:04 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #31

notfromhere wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because people have a long-established inability to fully realize the long-term impacts of things when compared to short-term benefit?

Wait, you mean that drinking cases of Diet Coke and beer all day and working 18 hours a day for your 20s May have long term health impacts?

People who worked as teenagers working at ice cream parlors report life long pain in their dominant wrist.

Is that something you expect a 16 year old to know is going to happen?

Biomechanics is a complicated subject.