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China Censors Bad Economic News Amid Signs of Slower Growth

nytimes.com

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Re: China Censors Bad Economic News Amid Signs of Slower Growth

#41

Post by yAnonymous »

I want to condemn this, but given the current state in western countries, I'd feel like a hypocrite.

We have so much light censorship and politicians get to lie without any consequences. The institutions who play along are rewarded and those who try to speak out about it are discredited.

There's illegal surveillance that we only get to know about from whistleblowers.

Political correctness is used to silence millions of people and invalidate opinions without having to debate anyone.

Elections are won through illegal social media campaigns.

If anything, China is copying us.

Re: China Censors Bad Economic News Amid Signs of Slower Growth

#42

Post by paradite »

bicubic wrote: post #40
paradite wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would agree with you that such techniques could be used, and in fact I suspect they are used. However, I wouldn't say they strictly qualifies as censorship, because you can still get the information if you know where to look at (go to specific websites legally and search for them).

If information that would typically be widespread was prevented from becoming widespread, then censorship has taken place and succeeded. If a newsworthy event has taken place but is not reported on mainstream media because of government intervention, that is censorship. The main purpose of censorship is not to completely stop all access to some information, it is to prevent that information from reaching a majority o…

If it's just because of different definitions of censorship, I would gladly take the downvotes. After all, people disagree on definitions and HN allows downvotes for disagreeing.

In fact I am happy that we found the root cause of our disagreement.

Edit: To be more clear, I would define censorship as denying legal means to access a piece of information.

Re: China Censors Bad Economic News Amid Signs of Slower Growth

#43

Post by hrktb »

charlysl wrote: post #19
hrktb wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel the strategy is just different. In our culture there is no need to suppress the bad news, it can just be drowned down in a flurry of stupid news, contradictory statements and "why do you hate freedom" kind of finger pointing. If random people speaking freely has close to no effect on the leading class, there is not much need to suppress free speech.

Sure, in the west there are constant attempts at gaming the system, and propaganda is as rife as in authoritarian regimes, and this often results in the masses (us) being misinformed. However, I still don't think it's the same as direct censorship, where it's pretty much game over, nor as damaging. I mean, do you really believe that it's irrelevant that the conversation we are having now, without any fears, I assume,…

Disclaimer: I don’t have any experience living in China.

With that in mind, from what I get anything political or touching the PRC will be heavily scrutinized, anything else nobody will bat an eye.

In that respect, the fact we can discuss this freely is nice. But I’d be cautious to declare we’re freer than them just on that fact alone. I just don’t know.

Compound to that, the fact that we went through series of very serious crisis (the banking crash 10 years ago comes to my mind) with almost no long lasting structural change of the same order as the crisis, despite people’s engagement.

This to me brings the question: how much impact does free public discussion have on the real world ? Does it even have a real impact on public opinion ? Or are we just set in a sandbox, toying with whatever we want, while everything else rolls around ?

Re: China Censors Bad Economic News Amid Signs of Slower Growth

#44

Post by simias »

paradite wrote: post #13
alecco wrote: post #4

The kind of "bad economic news" censored: TABLE-China bond defaults rise over 56 pct from 2017 at $8.74 bln https://www.reuters.com/article/china-economy-defaults/table...

How about stopping the baseless accusations thrown at China? http://finance.sina.com.cn/money/bond/research/2018-04-13/do... http://finance.sina.com.cn/money/bond/2018-08-31/doc-ihinpmn... http://finance.sina.com.cn/money/bond/research/2018-06-15/do... http://bond.jrj.com.cn/2018/09/30133825154607.shtml http://bond.hexun.com/2018-08-01/193639187.html Edit: Looks like I'm being flagged for pointing out the false accus…

Can you explain in short what accusation you deem baseless? Is it the fact that censorship is going on or is it the specific item of "bad economic views" linked by the parent?

Unfortunately for most of us westerners the chinese web remains mostly opaque (and automated translation very mediocre) so I don't understand what your links are supposed to demonstrate. That's probably why you're getting downvoted too.

Re: China Censors Bad Economic News Amid Signs of Slower Growth

#46

Post by bicubic »

paradite wrote: post #42
bicubic wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If information that would typically be widespread was prevented from becoming widespread, then censorship has taken place and succeeded. If a newsworthy event has taken place but is not reported on mainstream media because of government intervention, that is censorship. The main purpose of censorship is not to completely stop all access to some information, it is to prevent that information from reaching a majority o…

If it's just because of different definitions of censorship, I would gladly take the downvotes. After all, people disagree on definitions and HN allows downvotes for disagreeing. In fact I am happy that we found the root cause of our disagreement. Edit: To be more clear, I would define censorship as denying legal means to access a piece of information.

"Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information, on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient" as determined by a government or private institution"

The definition is pretty clear, and TFA pretty clearly meets that definition. You're not being downvoted simply because people disagree with your point of view, you're being downvoted because you're using alternative party-approved language which subverts the discussion.

To put it really bluntly, your comments match the heuristic of what people would consider propaganda trolling.

Re: China Censors Bad Economic News Amid Signs of Slower Growth

#47

Post by phyller »

gaius wrote: post #20
arnoldtheai wrote: post #17

Trump does exactly the same. What's the difference.

I guarantee that Trump has zero influence on how the NYT reports on the economy.

That's not true, if a piece of economic information would be damaging to Trump it would likely get even more coverage.

Re: China Censors Bad Economic News Amid Signs of Slower Growth

#48

Post by mabbo »

This should really terrify us all.

The Chinese economy is not just inflated, it's now an enormous chunk of the world economy. Throw in their really wild housing bubble [0] and it's a time bomb. Globalization has made everything cheaper, but it's tied us all together in many ways. They won't fall over alone.

Hiding news that the economy isn't doing well distorts incentives. Those with political connections will know what's really happening and take full advantage. Those without will make poor choices. Like buying a 4th unfinished condo as an investment.

[0]https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-06-24/why-china...

Re: China Censors Bad Economic News Amid Signs of Slower Growth

#49

Post by frockington »

phyller wrote: post #47
gaius wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guarantee that Trump has zero influence on how the NYT reports on the economy.

That's not true, if a piece of economic information would be damaging to Trump it would likely get even more coverage.

He's also gamed them a few times to accidentally cover good data. Most notably when he "leaked" the low jobs numbers and CNN/NYT covered it non stop

Re: China Censors Bad Economic News Amid Signs of Slower Growth

#50

Post by nscalf »

mabbo wrote: post #48

This should really terrify us all. The Chinese economy is not just inflated, it's now an enormous chunk of the world economy. Throw in their really wild housing bubble [0] and it's a time bomb. Globalization has made everything cheaper, but it's tied us all together in many ways. They won't fall over alone. Hiding news that the economy isn't doing well distorts incentives. Those with political connections will know w…

Absolutely this. For all of the benefits that come along with globalization, there is very little talk about all of the risks that come along with it. And you can see this on many scales---when European nations "globalized" to include all of their neighbors, they exponentially increased the risk that they would undergo economic stress. They let go of their tight control over their own economy and their ability to quickly and sharply respond to problems.

I went to college for economics during the recovery from 2008, and one of my professors was a very well respected economist managing large funds. One conversation I had with her stuck with me. We had to read the Wall Street Journal for some assignments, and I asked her why it seemed that Quantitative Easing wasn't have anywhere near the result we expected it to have. She said she thought it was because everyone was doing it. I remember reading articles about concerns that Japan was also doing QE and that it might belittle the efforts of the Fed over here.

I think globalization is a huge step forward and really beneficial overall, but it's not a panacea and it does come with some drawbacks.

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