Brain Drain Within the EU? • Hacker News Board

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#41

Post by rukittenme » Sat, Sep 22, 2018, 4:40 PM UTC

arximboldi wrote: post #27

ciguy wrote: post #18

I'm living in Italy at the moment, and I can watch the brain drain happening in real time. Every single university student I know here is looking to go to the UK or Germany when they graduate, almost without exception. I can't blame them at all, taxes are excessive and bureaucracy is excruciating here. Finding even a temporary job usually requires family connections, so the dumbest people with connections end up as m…

I am a Spaniard living in Germany... part of that very same problem. Anyways, "taxes and bureaucracy" is not the problem of the of the european south. In fact, taxes and bureaucracy are both way higher in Germany. The problems are more complex and historical. The EU economic crisis have been abused by right-wingers to argue that we have a too heavy social system. In fact, the demolition of the social system in the so…

He said "taxes are excessive" not "high" and "bureaucracy is excruciating" not "high". Both his statements and your statements can be true simultaneously.

Taxes may be excessive but lower if the services received for the taxes are inferior or undesirable. Or if the tax is raised in regressive or arbitrary ways.

Germany may have a large, effective bureaucracy while Spain may have a smaller, corrupt bureaucracy. This I believe is demonstrated by the "Corruption Perception Index".

Welfare states really have nothing to do with how regimented society is.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#42

Post by whack » Sat, Sep 22, 2018, 4:45 PM UTC

ItsMe000001 wrote: post #32

rleigh wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely a major factor for problems in both Italy and Spain is the crippling effect of the Euro and EU regulation. If the Euro were scrapped, it could make the economies much more competitive. Just look at how the drop in the pound over the last two years boosted British industry and exports. That's not an option for countries shackled to the Euro.

So, the same problem that the poor(er) states in the US have. And yet, they seem to be content to stay within the union - so I think there may be a little more to it than a single variable? I'm open to the argument, it just seems a little... well, short. Especially in a reply to a comment that said "The problems are more complex" :-) (now it's simple after all? I doubt it)

rleigh is making the same argument as people like Paul Krugman. It's a controversial topic for sure, but I think it's unfair to call it "short"

https://www.npr.org/2011/01/25/133112932/paul-krugman-the-ec...

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#43

Post by zanybear » Sat, Sep 22, 2018, 4:52 PM UTC

I think this chart would be better explained when correlated with investment in R&D by country

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#44

Post by ciguy » Sat, Sep 22, 2018, 5:01 PM UTC

arximboldi wrote: post #27

ciguy wrote: post #18

I'm living in Italy at the moment, and I can watch the brain drain happening in real time. Every single university student I know here is looking to go to the UK or Germany when they graduate, almost without exception. I can't blame them at all, taxes are excessive and bureaucracy is excruciating here. Finding even a temporary job usually requires family connections, so the dumbest people with connections end up as m…

I am a Spaniard living in Germany... part of that very same problem. Anyways, "taxes and bureaucracy" is not the problem of the of the european south. In fact, taxes and bureaucracy are both way higher in Germany. The problems are more complex and historical. The EU economic crisis have been abused by right-wingers to argue that we have a too heavy social system. In fact, the demolition of the social system in the so…

Tax rates on middle income earners (15k to 30k euros annually) are higher in Italy, at least based on my limited research. If you have data to back up your claim that they are higher in Germany I'd love to see it. Either way that's not actually the core of the issue.

In Germany, you get decent public transportation, great education and healthcare for your tax money. In Italy these things range from tolerable but inefficient to outright useless depending on where you are.

I've also lived in Germany, and while they do love their paperwork and forms you are more or less guaranteed a specific result if you comply with the process, and it happens within a determined time frame. In Italy you can do the same exact process 5 times and get 5 different responses, or simply no response at all as they will happily lose your paperwork over and over. In many cases officials ask for random documents that don't exist and are not listed anywhere as required, simply to make you leave and bother someone else.

I've become convinced however that all of these issues above are actually caused at their core by nepotism, cronyism and corruption. The most incompetent and corrupt get promoted to the top, and the rest are trampled until they give up or leave. There's no future and no opportunity for bright young Italian people.

Where I live businesses still pay protection money to the mafia, openly. Why would any young person want a part of that? This is going to get worse for Italy as young people, who would normally be the catalyst for progress and change, simply leave.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#45

Post by ciguy » Sat, Sep 22, 2018, 5:04 PM UTC

ericd wrote: post #39

arximboldi wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Spaniard living in Germany... part of that very same problem. Anyways, "taxes and bureaucracy" is not the problem of the of the european south. In fact, taxes and bureaucracy are both way higher in Germany. The problems are more complex and historical. The EU economic crisis have been abused by right-wingers to argue that we have a too heavy social system. In fact, the demolition of the social system in the so…

From the outside, the bureaucracy certainly seems like a big part of the problem. I've idly thought about moving to one of those countries and starting a company there because they are so nice . But one of the big things that kills those ideas are the horror stories about the horrible bureacracy, with non-deterministic results despite the same inputs. Starting a business is hard enough without spending time dealing w…

I also considered hiring people here. After looking into the regulations and dealing with the government in other areas I realized I'd need a full time lawyer just to deal with the bureaucracy while I ran the business. There's just absolutely no reason to participate in the economy here, it's too deeply dysfunctional.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#46

Post by ciguy » Sat, Sep 22, 2018, 5:07 PM UTC

rukittenme wrote: post #41

arximboldi wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Spaniard living in Germany... part of that very same problem. Anyways, "taxes and bureaucracy" is not the problem of the of the european south. In fact, taxes and bureaucracy are both way higher in Germany. The problems are more complex and historical. The EU economic crisis have been abused by right-wingers to argue that we have a too heavy social system. In fact, the demolition of the social system in the so…

He said "taxes are excessive" not "high" and "bureaucracy is excruciating" not "high". Both his statements and your statements can be true simultaneously. Taxes may be excessive but lower if the services received for the taxes are inferior or undesirable. Or if the tax is raised in regressive or arbitrary ways. Germany may have a large, effective bureaucracy while Spain may have a smaller, corrupt bureaucracy. This I…

Precisely. Value for your tax money is simply not there in Italy. You get either tolerable, or non-existent transport, healthcare and education depending on where you are.

In the south it's usually non-existent. The root of the issue is nepotism and cronyism, which gives very little hope to young people who would normally be the catalyst for change and improvement. Instead of participating in a rigged system they can just leave now, and most do.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#47

Post by ciguy » Sat, Sep 22, 2018, 5:09 PM UTC

rleigh wrote: post #30

arximboldi wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Spaniard living in Germany... part of that very same problem. Anyways, "taxes and bureaucracy" is not the problem of the of the european south. In fact, taxes and bureaucracy are both way higher in Germany. The problems are more complex and historical. The EU economic crisis have been abused by right-wingers to argue that we have a too heavy social system. In fact, the demolition of the social system in the so…

Surely a major factor for problems in both Italy and Spain is the crippling effect of the Euro and EU regulation. If the Euro were scrapped, it could make the economies much more competitive. Just look at how the drop in the pound over the last two years boosted British industry and exports. That's not an option for countries shackled to the Euro.

Most of the beauricracies I've dealt with in Italy have nothing to do with the Euro or the EU. And yet they are horribly mis-managed and run by corrupt nespotic maniacs.

It's a cultural problem, not a regulatory one. And thanks to brain drain the young people are leaving instead of affecting change.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#48

Post by borroka » Sat, Sep 22, 2018, 5:52 PM UTC

hectormalot wrote: post #26

borroka wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Italian postdoc salaries are comparable to the French ones and there are more opportunities in France than in Italy for some Italians, e.g. those that are not in the line of succession to the throne. When I was doing research in Italy, I never met a French scientist employed in any lab.

Anecdotally I'd say that research salaries in Italy seem quite low. I did an internship together with an Italian student in Switzerland. He had a full-time offer in Italy for what was seen as a good salary. Still, he made substantially more as an intern in Switzerland than he would make as a scientist in Italy.

Living in Switzerland is much more expensive than living in Italy (housing especially), so salaries are more or less adjusted accordingly to the cost of living. Then, there are also some top Universities in Switzerland.

When I was doing my postdoc ~ 7-10 years ago, I was making 1500 euros after taxes.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#49

Post by borroka » Sat, Sep 22, 2018, 5:58 PM UTC

kmlx wrote: post #21

borroka wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The effect of these ERA (European Research Agency) initiatives is zero. EU likes to throw money at problems without following up; for an enlightening example one can look at the Marie Curie fellowship. Money thrown at researcher for 2 or 3 years of research in EU or outside of EU institutions with zero follow up at the end of the fellowship. As far as I know, the vast majority of MC fellows leave academia and researc…

It's the same in other fields. Eastern European countries currently suffer from a plague of politicians and special interests that funnel EU funds straight to either their own personal bank accounts or to close friends and companies. [0] [1] [0] https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/hungary-... [1] https://ec.europa.eu/anti-fraud/sites/antifraud/files/olaf_r...

In the example I was describing above, the money goes to researchers (I was one of the recipients), but since there are no follow-ups, such as some support for researchers that finish the fellowship and are looking for jobs, the downstream effect of the Marie Curie actions is close to 0. You would think that a change of action would swiftly follow the analysis of data, especially after ~ 20 years of Marie Curie actions, but the EU Soviet-style bureaucracies are just interested in their survival and the appearance of effective action.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#50

Post by dogma1138 » Sat, Sep 22, 2018, 6:06 PM UTC

meguest wrote: post #36

dogma1138 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some especially in the city finance and some engineering firms do pay six figures for non managerial engineering talent and while the pound has dropped it’s still possible to get a $130-150k base salary in the city and unlike the US you get a very good pension and benefits on top of that. But if you compare the averages then yes you’ll be lucky breaking $70K in the EU.

I work for a US organisation in London, and not finance. The average compensation for engineers is about £100,000 - some above and some below. This is on top of private medical and dental, generous pension contributions and a number of other benefits.

Same for us, finance has slightly above average comp packages especially the bonus but in London it’s possible to get to 100K as an engineer outside of it it begins to drop drastically some tech hubs can have high salaries but Manchester for example tops out at around 80K and that’s also pretty hard to get.

Outside of the UK you might be lucky to get €50-60K even when working for US firms on average this includes Germany.

Some Nordic countries have higher salaries but the CoL is pretty steep.

Overall if you don’t include taxes it’s possible to get competitive salaries in the UK and some parts of Europe once you take into account income tax and VAT you’ll the race isn’t nearly as close anymore.

Also startups do not pay well at all and equity is nearly unheard off even for single digit non-founder employees.