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Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

blogs.scientificamerican.com

41–50 of 92 posts

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#41
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's really it at all. Most of us have to sit in classrooms for months or read and study to understand the intricacies of music theory. None of that is necessary to learning a few pop songs on a guitar or piano. You can learn to play songs purely through muscle memory as long as you have a basic sense of rhythm. That doesn't mean you understand anything about musical composition, scales, chords, modes…

I don't think you are disagreeing with what I said: >Most of us have to sit in classrooms for months or read and study to understand the intricacies of music theory. None of that is necessary to learning a few pop songs on a guitar or piano. That is not necessary, but once you play enough music, you learn the theory in practice . Or have enough data in your head to make that realization. I challenge you to play 100 p…

> That is not necessary, but once you play enough music, you learn the theory in practice. Or have enough data in your head to make that realization.

No, you really don't. You literally don't even need to know a single note name to be able to play a song from memory. You just need to know which keys to push or strings to pluck and frets to press in what order.

>I challenge you to play 100 pop songs on an instrument - any pop songs, any instrument - and not at least know things like major/minor chords, basic chord progressions (like the endemic I - V - vi - IV, aka "four chords").

Just because you're playing these progressions doesn't mean you have the slightest fucking idea what they are, or why they're numbered that way.

When I was about 6 years old I started learning piano. My parents took me to a teacher who used the Suzuki method. For those unfamiliar, it's a method of musical training that focuses solely on learning by ear with no discussion of theory or sheet music. I did this for years, and I absolutely hated playing the piano for reasons that had nothing to do with the piano itself.

Early in high school I picked up the electric bass, and did what you mentioned above, i.e. I learned a whole pile of pop and rock songs. I also played a bit of guitar around and between all this as well.

This constituted years of experience playing music. And yet, I did not suddenly and independently discover and understand the circle of 5ths. I couldn't tell you why a 7th chord was called a 7th chord. I didn't wake up with an intuitive understanding of time signatures.

I wasn't exposed to any of this stuff until I took a music theory class in college. It was at that point that the 'why' of what I had been doing to make noise on these instruments started to make sense.

And once I did start learning these things, there was still no intuitive sense of where to put my hands on the instrument to play the notes I wanted. I had to fumble around with it to figure out where the notes were.

And now, having spent years after high school playing in live bands in front of paying audiences, I still don't think I'm anywhere near what someone might call a 'great' musician, and my understanding of music theory is really far from complete. I still play all the time and can't sight-read, for example. I have to sit and puzzle out a piece of sheet music.

Additionally, I've read about this particular guy before in greater depth than is discussed in the linked article. Something unusual really did happen in his brain. He somehow gained knowledge and ability far beyond what we would consider normal.

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#42
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you are disagreeing with what I said: >Most of us have to sit in classrooms for months or read and study to understand the intricacies of music theory. None of that is necessary to learning a few pop songs on a guitar or piano. That is not necessary, but once you play enough music, you learn the theory in practice . Or have enough data in your head to make that realization. I challenge you to play 100 p…

> That is not necessary, but once you play enough music, you learn the theory in practice. Or have enough data in your head to make that realization. No, you really don't. You literally don't even need to know a single note name to be able to play a song from memory. You just need to know which keys to push or strings to pluck and frets to press in what order. >I challenge you to play 100 pop songs on an instrument -…

Well, guess it happens differently to different people. Thank you for talking about how the process went for you!

If you can find the more detailed article about the K.A. from the article, please post it!

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#43
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm way into golf and on the golf subreddit, there are regularly people who show up who ask about their chances of going pro as a 20-something or 30-something, and a chorus of people will respond that all pro golfers have tremendous natural ability (which may well be true) and that if you aren't already a great golfer without really practicing, you're not going to make it. But every account I've ever read of a pro go…

It’s like the old sports coach’s expression: “You don’t need talent in order to practice!” Outside of super-rare outliers, I don’t personally believe that anyone is born with natural talent for anything. When someone is highly skilled at something, I will assume that they spent tons of obsessive time learning and practicing rather than that they tried it one day and found they were magically good at it.

There's a huge spectrum of natural athletic ability in children; you could see it in plain sight you just played sports as a kid.

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#44
Who is judging the skill of these sudden savants?

Aside from code, I draw and paint well (art school) and have built my own furniture. I know I am far from an expert.

However to people who's last artistic endeavour was finger painting as a kid, my skills appear expert. I don't think they could tell apart the skill of a real practicing artist vs me, they have no foundation to judge from.

One day I want to take off 3 months, and lose myself in learning to play the piano, 4+ hours a day. I suspect I will be pretty good at the end, but judged as far better a player than I really am!

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#45
I think the article makes "epiphany" sound rather extraordinary. But in the normal course of learning music there are plenty of them which we tend to ignore for some reason.

For example: if you learned to ride a bike as a kid, you'll remember a moment where your balance just "locked in" and there you were riding for an arbitrary amount of time.

Now take twelve-bar blues on the piano: say you spend some weeks or months learning some bass patterns in your left hand. Maybe you learn a simple melody for the right hand. Then you put them together. Then you learn a few "riffs" for the right hand.

If you keep practicing consistently, at some point you develop your coordination in your left hand to the point that you've got a steady rhythm in the bass line. And you won't stop playing that bass line even if you mess up in the right hand.

No longer are you merely practicing the parts that go into playing the blues, you are practicing playing the blues by actually playing the blues. And each time you play a chorus, you have aural feedback you can use to decide whether the things you played in your right hand are worthwhile or undesirable. You can even play a thing which you did not intend that turns out to work, and use it later.

Essentially, you can now cycle through the blues form an arbitrary number of times. That's an epiphany, and it feels the same as the moment you learn to cycle an arbitrary number of times on a bicycle.

There are similar epiphanies when learning to construct a melody over a pentatonic scale, and an even stronger one when learning how to construct a melody over an octatonic scale. Those moments are so intense that a lot of musicians end up just stopping there because it's so much fun.

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#46
post #44

Who is judging the skill of these sudden savants? Aside from code, I draw and paint well (art school) and have built my own furniture. I know I am far from an expert. However to people who's last artistic endeavour was finger painting as a kid, my skills appear expert. I don't think they could tell apart the skill of a real practicing artist vs me, they have no foundation to judge from. One day I want to take off 3 m…

From what I've read and heard, it's pretty advanced stuff. In some of the clips I've listened to they'll hear a random excerpt of Romantic period music (say, 20 seconds worth), and the person will immediately play it back on the piano at tempo.

Now, if you played back the intro to Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata, would the savant give the full duration to that tied dotted sixteenth note from the first chord? Could they play back the first page of Ligeti's tempo fugue etude? I'm not sure, but what they do is already well beyond what even trained professional musicians can achieve.

Digression-- our idea of what constitutes "advanced" can get a little out of hand with myths that have been handed down over the years. Even Mozart "cheated" every now and then. One contemporaneous composer noted that when he requested that (child) Mozart sight read a difficult piano sonata, Mozart improvised the development section because it was too difficult to sight read it.

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#47

I think the article makes "epiphany" sound rather extraordinary. But in the normal course of learning music there are plenty of them which we tend to ignore for some reason. For example: if you learned to ride a bike as a kid, you'll remember a moment where your balance just "locked in" and there you were riding for an arbitrary amount of time. Now take twelve-bar blues on the piano: say you spend some weeks or month…

It's remarkable how similar this is to learning programming. Anyone remember the lightbulb moment of grokking pointers? And there you were writing C for an arbitrary amount of time t for 0 React devs probably have a moment when react suddenly makes sense.

In all four cases (bicycling, music, pointers, react) what makes the difference is dogged persistence. One day you'll wake up and things will seem simple -- and the next challenge impossible. Rise and repeat.

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#48
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, they didn't forget to, it's in the past tense: [COMBINED PARAS] All is well! ^_^

Nope, there is also [COMBINE PARAS] in there as well. I didn't see the COMBINED until later on in the article.

oh jeez there's actually a whole cluster of them -.-

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#49

I think the article makes "epiphany" sound rather extraordinary. But in the normal course of learning music there are plenty of them which we tend to ignore for some reason. For example: if you learned to ride a bike as a kid, you'll remember a moment where your balance just "locked in" and there you were riding for an arbitrary amount of time. Now take twelve-bar blues on the piano: say you spend some weeks or month…

It's remarkable how similar this is to learning programming. Anyone remember the lightbulb moment of grokking pointers? And there you were writing C for an arbitrary amount of time t for 0 React devs probably have a moment when react suddenly makes sense. In all four cases (bicycling, music, pointers, react) what makes the difference is dogged persistence. One day you'll wake up and things will seem simple -- and the…

how long does it take for react to make sense?

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#50
post #27

Is there a control group of people who spend an equal amount of time and fervor investigating a new musical or artistic path without first having the "epiphany?" I had a friend in college with no prior musical training who decided his second year to become a classical guitarist. We kind of teased him at first because he clearly had no sudden music-related epiphanies nor any idea of the time involved to master an inst…

I'm way into golf and on the golf subreddit, there are regularly people who show up who ask about their chances of going pro as a 20-something or 30-something, and a chorus of people will respond that all pro golfers have tremendous natural ability (which may well be true) and that if you aren't already a great golfer without really practicing, you're not going to make it. But every account I've ever read of a pro go…

I think this points to the idea that there’s a blurry line between talent and just a really early head start. Lots of the things we call skills are composed of more basic, lower level skills and in general skills can overlap in different domains. For example the skill of programming can be seen as being composed of / overlap with the skill of thinking abstractly, which may be composed of things like being able to visualize, draw relationships between ideas, sit still for long periods of time. Sports skills may be composed of the skill of something like detecting very subtle physical cues in your body. Are these things really skills though? I would say yes because you can train yourself to get better at them, but I suspect low level skill start developing so early on that it’s hard to catch up to others if you start developing them later in life. We think of these skills as innate talent because they can start to differentiate kids at a very early age, but that’s due to these skills starting to develop so early in life.
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