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Leaving .net

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Re: Leaving .net

#41

Post by jimbobimbo »

mahmud wrote: post #15
shin_lao wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why making money with programming makes you feel dirty?

It was Microsoft's answer to Java, with hindsight 20/20. I wanted to see their take on portable bytecode, JIT techniques, security, distributed computing, performance, etc. Nearly everybody there was burned by MS's short attention span when it comes to system libraries (OLE, COM, DCOM, DCOM+ for one, and the mess that is data-access libraries, OLE-DB,MDAC, ODBC, ADO, Jet, etc.) We wanted closure, at least I knew I di…

No, wait a sec. A good share of people is complaining about the lack of Microsoft's willingness to push the new shiny stuff - how much time did it take for them to come up with a MVC framework? - the other share of people is complaining that Microsoft pushes too much of a new stuff.

C'mon, people, give me a break - yes, there're lots of new frameworks coming from MS. Well, that's what I would expect the company to do in order to give their developers some other options to be more productive. It's not like MS' competition is sitting around and doing nothing - Google has their own not-invented-here syndrome, Ruby community produces new frameworks every other week, PHP community clones whatever Ruby community produces... Technology isn't frosen and is always a moving target, that's life, get over it.

Re: Leaving .net

#42

Post by [deleted] »

herewego wrote: post #39

I work for a mid-size (read: 100+ employee) IT recruiting company and I have to tell you that this boils down to one thing and one thing only for most people that have chosen .NET: economics. If you want to be a developer and you're goal is to give your three kids a good life, drive that BMW 5 series, and own a $500k house, then you should be a .NET developer. The math is simple and I have a mountain of data that sup…

[deleted]

Re: Leaving .net

#43

Post by cryptoz »

dingle_thunk wrote: post #32

People tend to think of Microsoft as much more backward than they actually are. Yes, Microsoft isn't the brighest when it comes to open-source, but they do at least try. And yes, if you're going to live in the Enterprise world, things are a little old fashioned, but that's a reflection of the market, not the vendor. Microsoft makes tonnes of neat stuff that never gains traction because people seem to have convinced t…

I tend to think of Microsoft is backwards because of their reluctance to allow the Internet to be important. For a decade (say, '00 to '10) they basically ignored all the good things about the Internet and tried their best to keep "the old way" relevant.

They're slowly getting better (see IE9, Bing and Office Live...all good, but also all very recent) but it's absurd how far behind they are on the Internet.

I don't doubt that there are cool, modern projects going on at MS. But they corporate push over the last decade has definitely been: ignore the Internet.

Re: Leaving .net

#44

Post by DrJokepu »

liamk wrote: post #7

Out of curiosity, are people building their own for-fun-projects using .net or even Java? All I seem to hear are people using Python, Ruby and Javascript.

Yes, .Net is actually a nice environment for hacking. C# is a very good programming language, the standard library is very well designed, it's fast, but the what I really like about .Net is how seamless it is to work with multiple languages at the same time. It's ridiculously easy to write some parts of the code in F#, others in C# and some others in Python. This way, I can always chose the best language for each problem without having to use the same language throughout the whole project.

(I also do a lot of Common Lisp fun coding as well so I'm not exactly a Microsoft fanboy, just to provide some context).

Re: Leaving .net

#45

Post by wipt »

dingle_thunk wrote: post #32

People tend to think of Microsoft as much more backward than they actually are. Yes, Microsoft isn't the brighest when it comes to open-source, but they do at least try. And yes, if you're going to live in the Enterprise world, things are a little old fashioned, but that's a reflection of the market, not the vendor. Microsoft makes tonnes of neat stuff that never gains traction because people seem to have convinced t…

On the same train of thought, Barrelfish is a pretty cool project... http://www.barrelfish.org/

Re: Leaving .net

#46

Post by jimbobimbo »

st3fan wrote: post #30

What do people here think of .Net as a choice of platform for startups?

I think it's great. Get BizSpark or WebsiteSpark to cover your licensing costs during development; start with el-cheapo $20/mo hosting which gives you reasonable bandwidth and MS SQL option - and you are all set. If three years down the road (that's how long *Spark lasts) you will find yourself thinking about licensing costs - you aren't doing it right: in three years of startup it's either you're getting enough profits to cover your licensing expenses, or you're in deep trouble no matter what license is.

Re: Leaving .net

#47

Post by huherto »

chrisbaglieri wrote: post #25

Personally, it's less the lack of community and more the lack of OSS adoption as a result of the lack of community that's a hindrance. .NET developers need to stop drinking Microsoft's Kool-Aid and explore what's out there. If nothing else, they ought to explore the major ports from the Java world (e.g. NHibernate, Spring.NET, etc.). .NET developers are effectively slaves to their tools; don't get me wrong, Visual St…

"The Java community embraces open source, and as a result, patterns become an integral part of their vocabulary." Generally good advice; but apply good judgment on using patterns. Learn when to use them and don't go overboard. We (the java community) are getting bad reputation for overusing patterns.

Re: Leaving .net

#48

Post by blub »

mahmud wrote: post #2

There were already open source MVC web frameworks and an army of .net developers who could have collaborated to make them great but nothing much happened. He is lamenting that the .NET community didn't embrace the pioneering MVC frameworks from the OS community, but waited for Microsoft to deliver its own "blessed" framework. Here is what he is forgetting: Economics. A good chunk of .NET developers are not using the…

Borland was (almost) killed by its own stupidity. Their RAD tools were miles ahead of anything that MS had, but they got buggier and buggier with each version and their C++ compiler had and still has poor standards compliance.

I felt like I had taken a step back productivity-wise with VC++6, but it was solid compared to BCB.

Re: Leaving .net

#49

Post by shoover »

mahmud wrote: post #15
shin_lao wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why making money with programming makes you feel dirty?

It was Microsoft's answer to Java, with hindsight 20/20. I wanted to see their take on portable bytecode, JIT techniques, security, distributed computing, performance, etc. Nearly everybody there was burned by MS's short attention span when it comes to system libraries (OLE, COM, DCOM, DCOM+ for one, and the mess that is data-access libraries, OLE-DB,MDAC, ODBC, ADO, Jet, etc.) We wanted closure, at least I knew I di…

Did you HAVE to chase every new API as soon as they came out? Did MFC suddenly stop working? Did the Win32 API go away? Why couldn't you just keep going as you were until you really wanted to rewrite to new APIs?

Re: Leaving .net

#50

Post by heretoo »

liamk wrote: post #7

Out of curiosity, are people building their own for-fun-projects using .net or even Java? All I seem to hear are people using Python, Ruby and Javascript.

My impression is that .NET just isn't that much for-fun, mainly because the community isn't based in the hobby arena. A decent package repository might help this (I guess there is one, but I don't know it) -- something like PyPi for python, rubygems for ruby (is this correct? [not a ruby programmer - yet!]), cliki for common lisp (okay, asdf isn't so nice), etc.

My impression is that .NET development, at least in the web arena, is quite backwards. Another observation to add to my first, is that .NET developers (at least where I work), aren't working on their own projects in anything else, so aren't benefiting from the way of working that RoR (CRUD, HTML templates, gems, etc) seems to have.

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