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Organ Grinding: When the Audience Revolted at Carnegie Hall

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Re: Organ Grinding: When the Audience Revolted at Carnegie Hall

#41
post #22
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s certainly true you can find musical qualities in almost any noise, but “music” by definition is a purposeful structure or arrangement of sounds to convey an idea or emotion. That is not to say that all music must follow some prescribed form or another, but the distinction between sound and music is, at a minimum, structure and intent. And it is also possible to intentionally structure some sounds in a way as to…

> And it is also possible to intentionally structure some sounds in a way as to be not music, or unmusic, which is the impression I get listening to Four Organs. This is artwork, and your impression is largely irrelevant. This sentiment that it's too simple or too unintentional reminds me of how I felt when I was 12 and laid eyes upon Clyfford Still's 1951-52 at the Chicago Art Institute. It didn't seem like art to m…

Hah, as artwork the only thing that is relevant is our personal impressions! My impression may not be relevant to you and vice verse, but who cares?

I never said it wasn’t performance art through noise. It’s definitely performance art through noise.

It’s just that if there is any meaning to the word “music” above and beyond “structured noise” then I’m not sure this hits the bar.

@jedimastert commented below that in fact it was precisely this threshold which the artist was exploring in this piece, so instead of foreclosing on the discussion outright as somehow diminishing their work, maybe appreciate that there’s an interesting question here which actually isn’t just a matter of “turn off that god awful noise!”

Re: Organ Grinding: When the Audience Revolted at Carnegie Hall

#42
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Limbaugh's point was that he is utterly without art and music talent/training yet can re-create some of these highly praised "works of art." Recreating something is worthless. Who cares if you can recreate something. He can splatter paint on canvas, but never thought to do it until he saw other people get popular from it. So sure, he can splash some paint on canvas, but he can't think of doing it, and that part is…

Tell that to any classical orchestra. Kids will sometimes fling pant on canvas as fun, but it's not art.

> Tell that to any classical orchestra.

Sure. Playing Beethoven doesn't make you Beethoven. A song is more than the sounds it takes to make it. It's nice to hear played but it doesn't mean the performers could have written it. And even if they could it doesn't mean they did.

> Kids will sometimes fling pant on canvas as fun, but it's not art.

I disagree. Or do parents not sometimes hang this on their fridge. I'm not saying you have to call it good art.

For a more exaggerated example, I can type the entirety of any great book. Or even handwrite it in pen if we want to be picky because maybe computers didn't exist at the time it was written. Does that make it as much of an achievement as the original writing of it? Is that art?

Re: Organ Grinding: When the Audience Revolted at Carnegie Hall

#43
Organ grinding indeed.

I love electronic music and the history of electronic music. But as I was delving into that history, particularly its early history when it was known as tape music or avante garde, I discovered that the rift between east and west coast synthesis goes back much further than I realized.

I am unabashedly turned off by west-coast/avante garde/tape music. When I tried to enjoy, for example, the seminal work of the west coast school of synthesis (which is to say, the album which brought it into the public consciousness), Silver Apples of the Moon, no matter what attention I gave it, or lack thereof, it was just noise to me. It could not enjoy or appreciate it, even on a technical level.

I had the same reaction as I listened to early tape music. The following is my opinion alone. I know it will rankle those who love this stuff: I can find no beauty here, nor anything that pleases the ear or elevates the spirit. The emotional chord this music strikes in me differs from nails on a chalkboard only in degree.

This is not because I can only enjoy the modalities of western diatonic music. I have learned to appreciate and enjoy a lot of eastern, middle-eastern, and african music, even in scales decidedly bizarre to western ears. But what all those schools of music have in common is an internal cultural unity and structure. Each speaks with its own language, and this language can be learned.

Avant Garde is deconstructionist by its very nature, rejecting all unity, structure, and modality as too constraining to the composer. But the result (again, my opinion) is not an expansion of expression, but a lack thereof, and a decent into chaos.

Re: Organ Grinding: When the Audience Revolted at Carnegie Hall

#44
It is not a very stimulating piece of music, at least as far as listening goes. It was probably fun to write, and maybe even to perform. Still, I think it is important for such art to exist, to the extent that it opens up space for new ways of thinking and creating to come into existence.

Where would we be if everything had to be harmonious, wholesome, a product of a singular cultural unity, easily understood, pleasurable and unchallenging?

Re: Organ Grinding: When the Audience Revolted at Carnegie Hall

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a semi-professional musician, that definition of art as "what I can't do" is really a rough thing to hear. Like, there are plenty of musical pieces I can play; that doesn't make them not art. I enjoy drawing though I am not great at it; that doesn't make my drawing not art... that just makes my drawings mediocre art. So, at the very least, I don't think that's a sustainable definition of art. For what it's worth,…

I guess "what Rush Limbaugh can't do" is a better baseline in your case.

[deleted]

Re: Organ Grinding: When the Audience Revolted at Carnegie Hall

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a semi-professional musician, that definition of art as "what I can't do" is really a rough thing to hear. Like, there are plenty of musical pieces I can play; that doesn't make them not art. I enjoy drawing though I am not great at it; that doesn't make my drawing not art... that just makes my drawings mediocre art. So, at the very least, I don't think that's a sustainable definition of art. For what it's worth,…

> As a semi-professional musician, that definition of art as "what I can't do" is really a rough thing to hear. I think you've misunderstood, on two fronts. First, the definition given was "what Rush Limbaugh can't do." More generally, it's what laypeople, those untrained in art, can't do. If you're a "semi-professional musician," then your ability to perform a work of music is a non-factor. Second, I read Limbaugh a…

1. that shouldn't matter. you don't need to be "trained" to produce art. Where even is the threshold? Is it only art if you're a professional, i.e. getting paid? If you took classes? There are so many problems with this definition. Art is creative expression; unskilled creators tend to create bad art. that should cover all the bases.

2. performances are art though.. so that distinction is meaningless.

Re: Organ Grinding: When the Audience Revolted at Carnegie Hall

#47
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Limbaugh's point was that he is utterly without art and music talent/training yet can re-create some of these highly praised "works of art." Recreating something is worthless. Who cares if you can recreate something. He can splatter paint on canvas, but never thought to do it until he saw other people get popular from it. So sure, he can splash some paint on canvas, but he can't think of doing it, and that part is…

Tell that to any classical orchestra. Kids will sometimes fling pant on canvas as fun, but it's not art.

It may not be good art, it may not be meaningful art, but it is art. Claiming that it isn't creates more problems than it solves.

And this isn't directed at you - but let me just make this clear. Orchestral performances are art. Shockingly, it seems like a lot of commenters think that music is just about the composition. Performances involve the composer and the performers' interpretations of the work, their technical skills, their styles. These are nontrivial. These add to and elevate a piece.

Re: Organ Grinding: When the Audience Revolted at Carnegie Hall

#48

I have only limited formal music education, but I am an ardent amateur performer and listener. But I agree with the person who ran down the aisle at the 1970 performance, yelling "Stop! I will confess!" Western music requires rhythm, melody, harmony. (though rhythm may stand nearly on its own.) Beauty can be subjective to a degree (some non-Western cultures do not find dissonant notes to be objectionable in an otherw…

Your litmus test for art relies on a definition from... Rush Limbaugh..? Powerful art is primarily experiential; perceived effort is irrelevant if the work moves you. I suspect Rush ignores an infinity of small, everyday beauties if his definition of art is so limited. Or perhaps he has a vested interest in maintaining the value of his collection. ;)

Beauty is absolutely subjective and does not conform to Western or Eastern standards. Melody, harmony, rhythm, and dissonance - or lack thereof - can all be manipulated to great effect outside of their established roles. Silence can be beautiful. Passive listening can be beautiful. Could one then suggest that these elements be used as the basis for an expanded definition and appreciation of music? As a fellow ardent listener I implore you to explore beyond the confines of the dominant modes of musical expression - there is a vast, wondrous world of sound and experience that awaits.

Re: Organ Grinding: When the Audience Revolted at Carnegie Hall

#49

I have only limited formal music education, but I am an ardent amateur performer and listener. But I agree with the person who ran down the aisle at the 1970 performance, yelling "Stop! I will confess!" Western music requires rhythm, melody, harmony. (though rhythm may stand nearly on its own.) Beauty can be subjective to a degree (some non-Western cultures do not find dissonant notes to be objectionable in an otherw…

> I can throw paint on a canvas.

But you did not throw the paint in a context that turned it into a statement. In fact, you did not at all. That's the point.

There was some artwork created before I was born: An artist made a statement on commercialization of art. "You could sell shit in cans." So he defecated into cans. About ten years ago the can/one of the cans was auctioned off for some 5-digit amount. That's when I learned about the whole story. Yes, for me that is art - even though I can shit into cans as well.

Re: Organ Grinding: When the Audience Revolted at Carnegie Hall

#50
This is my second time encountering this piece, and based on my experience with other electroacoustic compositions, it seems to me that the venue and position of sound sources would make a huge difference in the perception, and reception, of this work.

For example, I could see this piece fitting right into a contemporary museum setting. It wouldn't be at all out of place as an exhibit in the annual "Garden of Memory" that takes place in Oakland every year. It seems to me to invite both casual and meditative experiences, neither of which an orchestra hall is ideally suited for.

What would it be like if I were hearing it in surround sound, with significant spatial separation between the speakers? Or a binaural recording on headphones? Would it come off as more of a kind of heterophony?

Even better: can you imagine a piece like this being pulled off at one of those great Baroque cathedrals in Europe where there are antiphonal organs positioned around the cathedral? I've been dreaming of the possibilities ever since I visited one...

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