Responsibility Deflected, the CLOUD Act Passes • Hacker News Board

Re: Responsibility Deflected, the CLOUD Act Passes

#41

Post by neuronexmachina » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 3:16 PM UTC

jandrese wrote: post #36

jakeogh wrote: post #3

This could be an excellent use of the Presidential veto. Whatever your political leanings, omnibus bills are a terrible outcome of the false left right paradigm. Everybody gets to toss in the stuff they "want" to support but know their constituents do not. EFF: You wrote pages about it, but failed to mention the president still needs to sign it. It's a pretty glaring omission...

If the president vetoes this bill it won't be over the CLOUD act, it will be because it doesn't fund his insane border wall.

Or the new bipartisan Russian sanctions in the bill: https://www.thedailybeast.com/congress-snuck-new-russia-sanc...

Re: Responsibility Deflected, the CLOUD Act Passes

#42

Post by AFNobody » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 3:27 PM UTC

drawkbox wrote: post #23

> This bill is the CLOUD Act. It was never reviewed or marked up by any committee in either the House or the Senate. It never received a hearing. It was robbed of a stand-alone floor vote because Congressional leadership decided, behind closed doors, to attach this un-vetted, unrelated data bill to the $1.3 trillion government spending bill. Congress has a professional responsibility to listen to the American people’…

Yup. No secret, once recorded, stays secret forever and the surveillance state's expansion is making it worse. It'll just be a bigger pot to steal and no one bothers to pay for security because they don't have to.

Equifax made money off its security breach ffs.

Re: Responsibility Deflected, the CLOUD Act Passes

#43

Post by ams6110 » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 3:36 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #9

Teeer wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except Trump probably supports the CLOUD Act.

The Administration has backed the push for it (in part, to resolve an ongoing legal dispute with Microsoft, who also supports it), so it's pretty hard (though given Trump's other rapid reversals, not impossible) to see Trump causing a shutdown by vetoing the omnibus spending bill over it's inclusion.

Trumps "rapid reversals" are conventional negotiation tactics.

Want to get a better price on a car after you think you have your best deal already worked out? Show up for the purchase closing and say you've changed your mind. Most likely they'll offer you more not to walk away at that point.

Re: Responsibility Deflected, the CLOUD Act Passes

#44

Post by tzs » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 4:05 PM UTC

> London investigators want the private Slack messages of a Londoner they suspect of bank fraud. The London police could go directly to Slack, a U.S. company, to request and collect those messages. The London police would not necessarily need prior judicial review for this request. The London police would not be required to notify U.S. law enforcement about this request. The London police would not need a probable cause warrant for this collection.

Is the implication that before the CLOUD Act, if London police wanted to ask a US company for information they had to notify US law enforcement?

Sure, if they wanted to force a US company to give them information they would have to get the US legal system involved, but as far as I am aware US law enforcement is not a gatekeeper over foreign access to talk to US entities, at least when those foreigners are not from countries that the US restricts contact with in general.

Re: Responsibility Deflected, the CLOUD Act Passes

#45

Post by charred_toast » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 4:14 PM UTC

I guess we learned nothing from the 20th century. While our country, at least used to, pride itself and base it's image upon excoriating unjust governmental overreach abroad (East Germany), it has become exactly what it once bemoaned.

Re: Responsibility Deflected, the CLOUD Act Passes

#46

Post by ManFromUranus » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 4:16 PM UTC

lwhalen wrote: post #15

So, here's a question. I'm a small self-hoster, US-based. If the "London police" come calling asking for my data, what repercussions do I face if I just say "No"?

The UK government can compel you to give them whatever they want by indirectly acting via the US Govt. They will pressure the US Govt the US Govt will act on you. So even though on paper they can't directly act against you, rest assured, they can. Lets pretend that the US government would not comply with requests to compel you to give them something, you can still be sued or otherwise acted upon in such a way that you would have to expend time / resources to fend off the request / lawsuit or whatever. So to say that the UK Govt can't do anything to you because you don't have any assets there or don't want to go there is kind of silly IMO.

Re: Responsibility Deflected, the CLOUD Act Passes

#47

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 4:17 PM UTC

charred_toast wrote: post #45

I guess we learned nothing from the 20th century. While our country, at least used to, pride itself and base it's image upon excoriating unjust governmental overreach abroad (East Germany), it has become exactly what it once bemoaned.

No, our government still prides itself on excoriating unjust governmental overreach abroad.

Of course, that's often a good distraction from unjust governmental overreach at home. But if you think that wasn't just as true at the Cold War time you point to, you are sadly mistaken.

Re: Responsibility Deflected, the CLOUD Act Passes

#48

Post by tzs » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 4:23 PM UTC

kyrra wrote: post #37

jandrese wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the president vetoes this bill it won't be over the CLOUD act, it will be because it doesn't fund his insane border wall.

Which he is considering doing right now. https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/97716688749379993... "I am considering a VETO of the Omnibus Spending Bill based on the fact that the 800,000 plus DACA recipients have been totally abandoned by the Democrats (not even mentioned in Bill) and the BORDER WALL, which is desperately needed for our National Defense, is not fully funded." (edit: updated link to Trump's twi…

> "I am considering a VETO of the Omnibus Spending Bill based on the fact that the 800,000 plus DACA recipients have been totally abandoned by the Democrats (not even mentioned in Bill) and the BORDER WALL [...]

Can someone explain to me how Congress cannot get DACA handled? The last polling I saw showed that it had near universal support among Democrats, and a solid majority among Republicans (about 80% overall for the general population).

It should be sufficient for the Republicans who are in charge of Congress to write a simple, clean, bill--hell, just codify the Obama executive order on DACA into law, since the problem Republicans seemed to have with that was that they thought Obama did not have authority for it, not that they thought it was a bad policy. That should sail through Congress easily.

Or, if they are worried Trump might veto if it is not attached to wall funding, instead of passing it directly they could explicitly give Trump the power to issue an executive order covering this. That wouldn't give him his wall, but it would give him the opportunity to issue an order similar to Obama's, and then take credit for personally saving those children for unjust deportation after the Democrats failed to pass a law.

Re: Responsibility Deflected, the CLOUD Act Passes

#49

Post by shiado » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 4:30 PM UTC

Hopefully with all these recent transgressions against digital rights we will see the emergence of some hybrid of Zeronet, TOR, I2P, IPFS, BitTorrent, etc... All these technologies have some serious usability/UX problems. We need something so easy to use and so ubiquitous that it will make nations feel like Metallica going up against Napster.

Re: Responsibility Deflected, the CLOUD Act Passes

#50

Post by tangent128 » Fri, Mar 23, 2018, 4:48 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #48

kyrra wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which he is considering doing right now. https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/97716688749379993... "I am considering a VETO of the Omnibus Spending Bill based on the fact that the 800,000 plus DACA recipients have been totally abandoned by the Democrats (not even mentioned in Bill) and the BORDER WALL, which is desperately needed for our National Defense, is not fully funded." (edit: updated link to Trump's twi…

> "I am considering a VETO of the Omnibus Spending Bill based on the fact that the 800,000 plus DACA recipients have been totally abandoned by the Democrats (not even mentioned in Bill) and the BORDER WALL [...] Can someone explain to me how Congress cannot get DACA handled? The last polling I saw showed that it had near universal support among Democrats, and a solid majority among Republicans (about 80% overall for…

A majority among nominal Republicans is not sufficient if there's not a majority among the Republican base that actually votes in primaries, especially with the knowledge that support of DACA will be spun by further-right primary opponents as "letting criminals stream across our border".