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Ask HN: Is online self-education useful or just delusion?

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Re: Ask HN: Is online self-education useful or just delusion?

#41

Post by znpy »

whatyoucantsay wrote: post #39
znpy wrote: post #18

It is a huge delusion. Its promise was to bring education to all those who couln't previously reach it, either geographically, financially or for for time reason (fulltime work and no time to actually attend lessons). Instead, it brought higher education to those who already had a formal education (see Udacity's OMS-CS) or by offering non-degree, informal "certificates" (edX's micro-masters and Coursera's certificate…

Doing certificates on edX and Coursera is the wrong path. Their certificates and "micro-masters" or "nano degrees" are worthless. The way you do it is you go through a full 4-year program on MIT's OCW. You do the same assignments and write the same tests actual students did a decade ago. Then you take a GRE subjects test. Whether or not you use the score to enter a graduate school, it carries weight. The same is true…

> The way you do it is you go through a full 4-year program on MIT's OCW. You do the same assignments and write the same tests actual students did a decade ago. Then you take a GRE subjects test.

Well surely you can do everything in your free time, but MIT is still not going to give you a degree of any kind for doing a full 4-year program on MIT OCW.

Re: Ask HN: Is online self-education useful or just delusion?

#42

Post by zapperdapper »

> online self-education is a delusion because passive enthusiasts and desperate folks do not just really need tools but a purpose or a market.

I believe you are accusing online education of giving people ("passive enthusiasts and desperate folks" in your words) false hope?

I would contend the world is a better place for having free online education. Removing that would not address issues around 'purpose' or 'market'.

The job market is definitely there, although I am not quite sure why you single out 'remote work'.

With regards 'purpose' that can be defined by, and depends on, the individual. For example, learning about art history online might help with that novel you are writing.

I think your bone of contention is more with 1) the job market 2) the process of being credentialed.

Free online learning resources were never intended to address these issues and in many ways they can never do so.

I think what is needed (and I believe there are some options already available) is an open degree credentialing system. The way this would work is there would be an open syllabus that could be downloaded freely, with various learning outcomes and expectations provided. Examination requirements would be clearly specified. The student would then study from any or all of the available resources, and when fully prepared would attend an examination centre to sit the exams.

In the UK you can do this already at GCSE and A level (there are some restrictions to this). You can download syllabus from the relevant exam board, example exam questions, recommended resources etc. You can study online resources, recommended text books and so on. You can even hire a personal tutor if you need to and there are some entities that will provide all the materials you need. What really needs to be done is for this to be expanded up to degree level and possibly beyond. So potentially the only thing you would pay for is to sit the exams. Of course this cannot address issues around market demand - that is more down to economic considerations, not the availability of online education.

So, I agree with you in the sense that free online education does not solve all problems, but then nor does a university education guarantee you a job or a purpose either!

Re: Ask HN: Is online self-education useful or just delusion?

#43

Post by ksk »

ffwacom wrote: post #35
ksk wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAICT, neither of them have designed anything. Elon Musk has an executive role. Carmack's role is unclear. Happy to go through any information you've come across..

Carmack invented modern VR

That maybe correct, and I have huge respect for John (I've watched and re-watched all of his keynotes and lectures), but we're talking about rockets here.

>Elon Musk, who studied aerospace on his own, is building rockets. John Carmack, who holds no degree at all, has done the same on a smaller scale.

Re: Ask HN: Is online self-education useful or just delusion?

#44

Post by noobly »

Someone1234 wrote: post #2

(1) Learn something. (2) Develop a portfolio (e.g. Github) leveraging #1 (3) Apply for jobs leveraging #1 & #2 (4) Apply for your next job leveraging #1, #2, and #3. (5) Repeat Honestly the route of a traditional college education is exactly the same, except replace #2 with "a magical piece of paper which asserts I know #1." People sometimes struggle because they jump from #1 to #3, and have no way of showing they ca…

This really sums it up. I hope for more low cost, regionally accredited online universities in the near future. I'm particularly fond of University of the People's tuition free model (in which student's pay only for proctoring and assessment), and hope to see more developments similar to this but on a regional level. Or, alternatively, accreditation being awarded by universities if mastery of material is adequately and reasonably proven.

I find it sad that my favorite lecturers have all been online, yet I must pay the premium for services I don't necessarily want (namely physical, real time lectures in a geographically fixed location, and all the overhead associated with it) if I want 'real' accreditation.

Re: Ask HN: Is online self-education useful or just delusion?

#45

Post by whatyoucantsay »

znpy wrote: post #41
whatyoucantsay wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing certificates on edX and Coursera is the wrong path. Their certificates and "micro-masters" or "nano degrees" are worthless. The way you do it is you go through a full 4-year program on MIT's OCW. You do the same assignments and write the same tests actual students did a decade ago. Then you take a GRE subjects test. Whether or not you use the score to enter a graduate school, it carries weight. The same is true…

> The way you do it is you go through a full 4-year program on MIT's OCW. You do the same assignments and write the same tests actual students did a decade ago. Then you take a GRE subjects test. Well surely you can do everything in your free time, but MIT is still not going to give you a degree of any kind for doing a full 4-year program on MIT OCW.

Yes. This is exactly why it's important to do a rigourous exam such as a GRE subject test or a CFA.

Re: Ask HN: Is online self-education useful or just delusion?

#46

Post by whatyoucantsay »

ksk wrote: post #43
ffwacom wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carmack invented modern VR

That maybe correct, and I have huge respect for John (I've watched and re-watched all of his keynotes and lectures), but we're talking about rockets here. >Elon Musk, who studied aerospace on his own, is building rockets . John Carmack, who holds no degree at all, has done the same on a smaller scale.

Do you dispute that Carmack built rockets?

Have you read Masters of Doom or even Googled the question?

http://bfy.tw/H8Z5

Re: Ask HN: Is online self-education useful or just delusion?

#47

Post by ksk »

whatyoucantsay wrote: post #46
ksk wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That maybe correct, and I have huge respect for John (I've watched and re-watched all of his keynotes and lectures), but we're talking about rockets here. >Elon Musk, who studied aerospace on his own, is building rockets . John Carmack, who holds no degree at all, has done the same on a smaller scale.

Do you dispute that Carmack built rockets? Have you read Masters of Doom or even Googled the question? http://bfy.tw/H8Z5

Indeed, he was part of a team that built rockets. I even said his role was unclear to me. Can you link to any document detailing his involvement?

Edit: Please don't take this as a diss on his work. Just because one didn't play a role in designing the rockets, doesn't mean they were not crucial to the project.

Re: Ask HN: Is online self-education useful or just delusion?

#48

Post by ccajas »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #25
jfaucett wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wanted to make that distinction as well. It is very important. The internet and ed-tech have quite clearly been fantastic for the motivated learners who want to teach themselves. It has made imho largely zero dent into doing away with the credentialing problem. And the credentialing is the #1 reason people go to school i.e. to get a degree, social bragging rights, and a job, its essentially a showoff function with…

Well, credentialing is important because it allows people who don't really understand what you do to judge if you are worth hiring. If you trust the credentialing authority, the credentials have meaning. If you aren't looking for a job per se, they aren't important. If you want to make money online or start a business, they aren't important. And that's something not everyone understands.

What if someone doesn't have the time investment to go back to school to get the adequate credentialing they need... eg. they need a full-time stable income to live, and this also rules out risking stable work for an internship.

Re: Ask HN: Is online self-education useful or just delusion?

#49

Post by DoreenMichele »

ccajas wrote: post #48
DoreenMichele wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, credentialing is important because it allows people who don't really understand what you do to judge if you are worth hiring. If you trust the credentialing authority, the credentials have meaning. If you aren't looking for a job per se, they aren't important. If you want to make money online or start a business, they aren't important. And that's something not everyone understands.

What if someone doesn't have the time investment to go back to school to get the adequate credentialing they need... eg. they need a full-time stable income to live, and this also rules out risking stable work for an internship.

I'm not clear what you are asking. Short answer: sucks, I guess.

But you can also look for scholarships or for other avenues to do the sort of thing you want to do. You list your needs, wants, etc and try to come up with solutions.

Re: Ask HN: Is online self-education useful or just delusion?

#50

Post by mixmastamyk »

dsacco wrote: post #37
mixmastamyk wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From experience, most of the coveted companies locally throw resumes without a four year degree in the trash as the first step of the hiring funnel.

Which companies are the coveted ones? Off the top of my head, Google, Apple, Facebook and Amazon happily hire people without degrees. Bloomberg and Goldman Sachs also do it. The lucrative private companies I can honestly think of that really won’t consider it are usually small and discreet, not well known and widely pursued. You still need to pass the interview hazing, and structurally you won’t be “inducted” the sam…

The companies you mention may in theory, but when a hundred resumes (coveted co/pos) show up guess who's go in the trash first? (With a friend on the inside it is different.)

In LA, it's JPL, SpaceX, Hulu, etc. I've applied at all these for jobs with twenty years experience and my resume doesn't last an hour in their system. Even had a previous job in aerospace at Rockwell.

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