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Ask HN: Is online self-education useful or just delusion?

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Re: Ask HN: Is online self-education useful or just delusion?

#21

(1) Learn something. (2) Develop a portfolio (e.g. Github) leveraging #1 (3) Apply for jobs leveraging #1 & #2 (4) Apply for your next job leveraging #1, #2, and #3. (5) Repeat Honestly the route of a traditional college education is exactly the same, except replace #2 with "a magical piece of paper which asserts I know #1." People sometimes struggle because they jump from #1 to #3, and have no way of showing they ca…

> But it really depends what you're learning. If you took a bunch of mechanical engineering self-taught courses, it is unlikely anyone is going to let you design a bridge. And yet Elon Musk, who studied aerospace on his own, is building rockets. John Carmack, who holds no degree at all, has done the same on a smaller scale. Who let them?

Statistically, Elon Musk and John Carmack are "outliers".

Also... Would you let a self-though doctor put his hand on you? Yeah he/she did not go to a "formal university" and he did not do practice in a "real hospital" but hey, HE READ A BUNCH OF MEDICINE BOOKS!

Re: Ask HN: Is online self-education useful or just delusion?

#22
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it really depends what you're learning. If you took a bunch of mechanical engineering self-taught courses, it is unlikely anyone is going to let you design a bridge. And yet Elon Musk, who studied aerospace on his own, is building rockets. John Carmack, who holds no degree at all, has done the same on a smaller scale. Who let them?

Statistically, Elon Musk and John Carmack are "outliers". Also... Would you let a self-though doctor put his hand on you? Yeah he/she did not go to a "formal university" and he did not do practice in a "real hospital" but hey, HE READ A BUNCH OF MEDICINE BOOKS!

Capitalizing entire words doesn't strengthen your case.

To answer your question, yes I would in cases where they are more educated than their schooled counterparts in the specific help I need. This is less common in medicine than in art, business or science, but it is not unheard of. In those cases, I would, and I have.

You should realize that with the exception of surgeons, most doctors lose skill throughout their careers. After medical school, doctors tend to slowly get worse in diagnostics and often ossify whatever was the best practice when they graduated. This is particularly clear in nutrition. Surgeons are an exception, due to the rapid feedback their work offers.

Re: Ask HN: Is online self-education useful or just delusion?

#23
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it really depends what you're learning. If you took a bunch of mechanical engineering self-taught courses, it is unlikely anyone is going to let you design a bridge. And yet Elon Musk, who studied aerospace on his own, is building rockets. John Carmack, who holds no degree at all, has done the same on a smaller scale. Who let them?

Statistically, Elon Musk and John Carmack are "outliers". Also... Would you let a self-though doctor put his hand on you? Yeah he/she did not go to a "formal university" and he did not do practice in a "real hospital" but hey, HE READ A BUNCH OF MEDICINE BOOKS!

People who educate themselves are outliers already.

> Would you let a self-though doctor put his hand on you?

There are consequences here beyond time and money so it isn't nearly as much of an apt comparison.

> did not do practice in a "real hospital"

Medical doctors already go through many years of residency as well as continually take standardized tests to keep their medical licenses.

Also lawyers in California and Louisiana can skip law school by passing their boards (and undergoing a type of apprenticeship I believe).

Re: Ask HN: Is online self-education useful or just delusion?

#24

Formal education has two purposes: 1. Convey knowledge. 2. Credentialing. Self education can serve the first purpose, but not the second. Make sure you are clear which one you are wanting here.

I wanted to make that distinction as well. It is very important. The internet and ed-tech have quite clearly been fantastic for the motivated learners who want to teach themselves. It has made imho largely zero dent into doing away with the credentialing problem. And the credentialing is the #1 reason people go to school i.e. to get a degree, social bragging rights, and a job, its essentially a showoff function with real monetary rewards. This is the main factor of why people go to higher ed. If it were to learn the system would look vastly different and have a much different design. This much, however, is not obvious since very few people will actually admit this is the primary reason - education policy legislatures included.

Re: Ask HN: Is online self-education useful or just delusion?

#25

Formal education has two purposes: 1. Convey knowledge. 2. Credentialing. Self education can serve the first purpose, but not the second. Make sure you are clear which one you are wanting here.

I wanted to make that distinction as well. It is very important. The internet and ed-tech have quite clearly been fantastic for the motivated learners who want to teach themselves. It has made imho largely zero dent into doing away with the credentialing problem. And the credentialing is the #1 reason people go to school i.e. to get a degree, social bragging rights, and a job, its essentially a showoff function with…

Well, credentialing is important because it allows people who don't really understand what you do to judge if you are worth hiring. If you trust the credentialing authority, the credentials have meaning.

If you aren't looking for a job per se, they aren't important. If you want to make money online or start a business, they aren't important.

And that's something not everyone understands.

Re: Ask HN: Is online self-education useful or just delusion?

#26
The question needs to be further defined, as usefulness can be evaluated in broad ways. To refactor the question:

1) Intrinsic usefulness, for personal improvement, satisfaction, development or solving one's own itch. Online self education is transformative. There was a time when specialized knowledge and technical knowledge was difficult to obtain. Unless you lived in a large city or a university town, your book choices were limited. There was no Amazon, no stack overflow, no abundance of technical content. For intrinsic benefit, online self-education is unequivocally yes.

As far as whether online self education is useful for participation in the employment market is less clear. At this time, it is not clear whether online self education has the signaling value to the market. This is less clear. If there is some form of certification that can be universally agreed upon then it will have more value. However at this time, this doesn't exist.

Re: Ask HN: Is online self-education useful or just delusion?

#27
'Useful' toward what end? Beware that thinking related to "personal opportunities to climb the ladder" is going to be shaped, probably a little too much, in this forum by the technologies and economic forces now producing what passes for wealth and happiness. The current thinking is that the world and the future belong to the young, that young thinkers, leaders and workers have the greatest impact, and that any misstep causing a loss of speed coming out of the chute will predictably lower the path of life's trajectory, which inevitably peaks around age 35. Within that world view, one must learn as much as one can as fast and as early as one can, and personalized full-time education face-to-face with skilled teachers is a great advantage as long as it does not last too long.

Another perspective to consider accepts that one has a time to be young, and with some probability our paths traverse times to be mature, middle-aged, old, older, and superannuated. With this in mind, the argument for optimizing the entire path is strong. Find a way to do that, and you will be called wise.

Your question does not mention age and does not say that you are young. I should not assume that. Lack of lifelong learning is an alleged driver of the hideously extensive withdrawal from productive work now seen in persons who have reached age 40 or more. Unfortunately, widely available and affordable full-time education face-to-face with skilled teachers for persons of any age is not a feature of the current educational landscape that I know, so lifelong learning cannot proliferate unless it contains a considerable dose of self-education.

Consider that much of education, regardless of context, is self-education. Almost everyone learns almost everything best by doing it, and sadly, learns it fastest from their own mistakes. The greatest value of skilled teachers may be that they illuminate the learners' blind spots, but skilled peers can also do the same. Of course, learning styles, psychology, background, culture and personality determine who can learn what from whom, but a mixture of teacher-led and self-driven education may be best.

If education is a process sustained by society so that its citizens know what the good life is and are capable of making good lives possible with the goal that the citizens will actually live good lives, the proper time to evaluate our educations is when those lives reach completion. This means that now we should be considering the lives of those educated back in the 1940's and 1950's and evaluating the benefits and deficiencies of those educations accordingly. Similarly, a young person choosing a course of education today should at least spend a little time trying to think ahead to 2080 and project what they will then be glad they learned in 2018 and what they will wish they had learned in 2018.

The practical wisdom used to be, "To play billiards competently is a sign of a good education. To play billiards too well is a sign of a squandered education." Good luck.

Re: Ask HN: Is online self-education useful or just delusion?

#28
I agree with your main idea. Online self-education was implicitly promising stable, well-paying jobs for the people without the means for formal studies.

But instead of governments standardizing, expanding and accrediting these tools, they were abandoned. They are now only used to supplement normal studies.

In my opinion, the reason for that is preserving the status quo. We're used to the rhetoric of merit-based job distribution and knowledge/productivity based salaries.

If a country created university programmes that were nationally accredited (ie by taking tests with physical presence in addition to online classes) then high-paying jobs would be available to everyone. Or would they? Because to a large extent, university degrees are useless without connections. If everyone had access to higher education, the lie that the poor are just lazy and stupid would collapse, exposing the nepotism and corruption of corporate and government jobs, and also empowering the people to take over these jobs themselves.

You can see this difference in the contrast between countries like the US, where higher education is unreachable for most people, and thus owning a degree guarantees almost 10x higher salaries than the poor, and the many countries in the EU where free or subsidized education results in much lower wage inequality.

Making education so accessible that you can earn a degree by watching 2-3 hours of lectures per day would disrupt the current situation completely, exposing many pathologies of both the educational and employment systems.

Re: Ask HN: Is online self-education useful or just delusion?

#29

(1) Learn something. (2) Develop a portfolio (e.g. Github) leveraging #1 (3) Apply for jobs leveraging #1 & #2 (4) Apply for your next job leveraging #1, #2, and #3. (5) Repeat Honestly the route of a traditional college education is exactly the same, except replace #2 with "a magical piece of paper which asserts I know #1." People sometimes struggle because they jump from #1 to #3, and have no way of showing they ca…

> But it really depends what you're learning. If you took a bunch of mechanical engineering self-taught courses, it is unlikely anyone is going to let you design a bridge. And yet Elon Musk, who studied aerospace on his own, is building rockets. John Carmack, who holds no degree at all, has done the same on a smaller scale. Who let them?

AFAICT, neither of them have designed anything. Elon Musk has an executive role. Carmack's role is unclear. Happy to go through any information you've come across..

Re: Ask HN: Is online self-education useful or just delusion?

#30
Whether you learn things online or in a classroom, in some sense there is always going to be a disconnect between academia and industry. Industry is where the rubber meets the road and academia is about abstracting it to a circle and line problem. I suppose trade schools could serve as a bridge in that regard. This is indeed a massive generalization, but I've found that people who are left brain dominant, and always in the habit of "citing" stuff, execute poorly on real life projects which are messy, will always have a lot of unknowns and deal with human factors.
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