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Likelihood of discontinuous progress around the development of AGI

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Re: Likelihood of discontinuous progress around the development of AGI

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[AGI Developer here] > the real barrier for AGI is software and not hardware. This is indeed true. It has actually been true for some time. AGI is computable on present day hardware if one has enough knowledge on how to correctly structure it. A fundamental understanding of intelligence is the first step. How one crafts this understanding into software is the second step. Hardware reached capability in recent years.…

>> AGI is computable on present day hardware if one has enough knowledge on how to correctly structure it. (...) Hardware reached capability in recent years. How could you possibly know anything regarding whether this is true or not, given that we know nothing about AGI? Also, may I ask what you mean by "AGI Developer"?

I’ve seen this claimed before. I think it’s based on an estimation of the computational sophistication of the human brain. Not what’s required to perfectly simulate a brain as such, much of the activity in brain cells is likely metabolic and not tied to their relevant behaviour, but what’s required to replicate the brain’s cognitive activity.

We may know little to nothing about AGI, but we do have one very common example of GI abundantly available to use as a point of reference.

I’m not sure what estimation the poster is using though, or how likely it might be to be accurate.

Re: Likelihood of discontinuous progress around the development of AGI

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[AGI Developer here] > the real barrier for AGI is software and not hardware. This is indeed true. It has actually been true for some time. AGI is computable on present day hardware if one has enough knowledge on how to correctly structure it. A fundamental understanding of intelligence is the first step. How one crafts this understanding into software is the second step. Hardware reached capability in recent years.…

>> AGI is computable on present day hardware if one has enough knowledge on how to correctly structure it. (...) Hardware reached capability in recent years. How could you possibly know anything regarding whether this is true or not, given that we know nothing about AGI? Also, may I ask what you mean by "AGI Developer"?

Computational power and memory estimates could be made based on existing knowledge of the human brain. The one big assumption being that the neuron is the source for human intelligence.

Re: Likelihood of discontinuous progress around the development of AGI

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That counterargument makes a lot of sense. I wonder why I never see it discussed anywhere? It might explain why humans are all close in intelligence to each other. Eg even with seven billion people we’ve never seen someone with a 500 iq. Or that you can explain the work done by the smartest human to someone with average iq if you invested some time building up their knowledge.

Thanks. I came up with that myself although I would like to see if someone can poke holes on it [1]. I am aware that many NP-hard problems, for example, usually have good approximate solutions in non-pathological cases. So that could be a big hole in that argument. Could a theoretical computer scientist give more insight on this? In particular, what is the hardness of approximate solutions to most problems that could…

For traveling salesmen problem there is Christofides algorithm which gives result that is no longer than 3/2 of optimal one. Theoretical bound on inapproximability of symmetrical TSP currently is 185/184.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1303.6437

Re: Likelihood of discontinuous progress around the development of AGI

#44
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is difficult to make arguments in something that has no grounding. I'd expect someone who claims to have a valid argument for an [intelligence explosion] event to have formal education and industry experience designing computational systems such that they could clearly define how exactly it could occur. I have yet to see such an individual w/ such a viewpoint. Instead, I see a ridiculous argument being forwarded b…

That's quite a bad argument when it comes to "existential risk for all of humanity". Of course, so far no one has any idea how pragmatically it could play out. Maybe it'll start with something as banal as VisualStudio + Cortana providing an advantage to AI design, that helps designing a better Cortana, that helps designing a better Cortana, that ... Yes, of course, it's unlikely in the coming next 1-2 decade, because…

> That's quite a bad argument when it comes to "existential risk for all of humanity".

It's not a bad argument. It's the standard for creating one. Engineers get paid to resolve risk/problems. So, if you claim there is one and it is fantastically an 'existential risk for all of humanity', one should at least be able to explain how exactly it exists in the most basic technical terms. I haven't heard a single example of this and in my work it was resolved from focusing on the hard problem : What is intelligence?.

> Of course, so far no one has any idea how pragmatically it could play out.

Then there is no argument. Let it go. What you don't understand is that millions/billions are at play over this argument. Humans love to make up fantastical nonsense/games for profit. You're being played. If someone truly claims they care about this issue, why haven't they done the first step? Define how exactly this pragmatically could play out. Were talking about people with PhDs, industry titans, and millions if not billions are at play and you're telling me that between them all they can't come up with a signle pragmatic way this scenario plays out? It's a scam that's why.

> Maybe it'll start with something as banal as VisualStudio + Cortana providing an advantage to AI design, that helps designing a better Cortana, that helps designing a better Cortana, that ...

Garbage in garbage out. Weak AI in Weak AI out.

> Yes, of course, it's unlikely in the coming next 1-2 decade, because the best "AGI" we know (the human mind), is a hodgepodge of specialized faculties jury rigged together by ancient code lossy compressed and stored in a multi-stage bootloading wetware that takes years to learn reading the magnificent ~26 letters of a latin alphabet (but similarly takes the same time to learn walking, talking, hearing, rudimentary thinking, a minimal concept of self, a theory of mind and so on, and for some reason it has a shitty API, it must go through all of the aforementioned to even begin learning chess).

And if I told you the foundation of AGI has already been defined, the core computational model proofed, and that a functional system exists today how would anything change? AGI is here and there is no doomsday playing out. It's running on an 8-core processor, a GPU, and 32GB of RAM completing interactive exercises and going through a series of tests defined by its creator. The bowl of spaghetti above your head was decoded and a functional equivalent instantiated in computer hardware. The locks are compiled binaries, read only code regions, and a power button.

> So far AI is focusing on computer vision, some NLP, (strategy or easy to evaluate) games. At least the current progress/results are clustered around those areas. We don't know when will be the next big leap, maybe in knowledge representation, or goal formation, maybe in other kinds of very useful, more general intelligence related areas.

Instead imagine a child AGI with no bearings on the world... The human equivalent eons ago... Being carefully cultivated and learned in a controlled environment. No takeoff intelligence scenario. No end of the world. A child simply stumbling its way through controlled scenarios being oversee and tweaked by its creator. Not so scary huh?

Re: Likelihood of discontinuous progress around the development of AGI

#45

About AlphaZero particularly, a few things must be kept in mind. First, AlphaZero still makes use of a Monte Carlo Tree Search algorithm to search for good moves. MCTS is a powerful algorithm with a very limited scope: zero-sum, perfect information games. So for instance, it would be very difficult to see how to use MCTS-based AlphaZero in, e.g., training self-driving cars. Second, the AlphaZero architecture is preci…

So, AlphaZero doesn't mean we're closer to _general_ AI. Quite the contrary: it's a very specialised form of AI that will be very difficult to use in any different task than chess, shoggi or go.

This is a very true statement and one that I think a lot of people who aren't in ML/DL, but are "worried" about AGI, miss.

There is however a common thread with everyone in AI, that they tend to think of AGI as "One algorithm to rule them all."

As a practitioner and AGI researcher however I think that AGI is more of a system of specialized or narrow AI tasks that can together solve all tasks. At the risk of oversimplifying and anthropomorphizing, this type of problem solving is functionally how we do it as humans.

So having a corpus of solved narrow systems (discrete known rule space in the sense of AlphaGo etc...) that is "activated" by an executive function which can recognize the problem set and then pass subsets of a larger problem to the narrow solutions. Those solutions are then "backpropagated" and synthesized into the general problem solution.

In that sense, I would argue that narrow solutions like AlphaGo etc... do get us closer to General AI because they grow the corpus of solution paths for the general problems.

Re: Likelihood of discontinuous progress around the development of AGI

#46
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your argument? Why a group of engineers who can think two times faster than average cannot perform the task of designing three times faster engineer quicker than a group of average engineers? They will hit economical and physical limits eventually, sure. But what will stop them at the beginning?

I guess the argument is, that so far no one showed good examples of how would that lead to a total extinction. How would it start, etc. So it's kind of a (fallacious) argument against "black box"-ing the whole intelligence explosion problem. If you can't define it, you can't analyze it sort of thing.

By the same logic there could be no virus which will exterminate humanity, because there was no precedents and we don't know the structure of such virus. Right?

Re: Likelihood of discontinuous progress around the development of AGI

#47

About AlphaZero particularly, a few things must be kept in mind. First, AlphaZero still makes use of a Monte Carlo Tree Search algorithm to search for good moves. MCTS is a powerful algorithm with a very limited scope: zero-sum, perfect information games. So for instance, it would be very difficult to see how to use MCTS-based AlphaZero in, e.g., training self-driving cars. Second, the AlphaZero architecture is preci…

I would just like to echo this comment as it exactly and indefensibly strikes out Weak-AI from Artificial General Intelligence. I fail to see how specially crafted optimization algorithms continue to receive higher attribution. First, they were renamed to Artificial Intelligence. A great deal of cash exchanged hands based on this attribution. To retain the spirit of the true definition of Artificial Intelligence, the naming convention : Artificial General Intelligence was crafted. Even then, the allure of cash/fame progresses to taint that whereby people are calling expositions of Optimization/search algorithms Artificial General Intelligence. It saddens me that mankind has progressed the ubiquitous and beautiful information age into the disinformation for profit age from top to bottom and bottom to top.

Re: Likelihood of discontinuous progress around the development of AGI

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> AGI is computable on present day hardware if one has enough knowledge on how to correctly structure it. (...) Hardware reached capability in recent years. How could you possibly know anything regarding whether this is true or not, given that we know nothing about AGI? Also, may I ask what you mean by "AGI Developer"?

Computational power and memory estimates could be made based on existing knowledge of the human brain. The one big assumption being that the neuron is the source for human intelligence.

An even bigger assumption is that intelligence in computers will require the same amount of computational power that it requires in humans. The AI we have so far is completely different than human intelligence (e.g. machine learning requires vast amounts of data; human learning can learn from single examples, etc). Computers themselves have completely different abilities than humans. Intelligence on the human brain is just not a very good model for intelligence on the computer.

Re: Likelihood of discontinuous progress around the development of AGI

#49
post #38

About AlphaZero particularly, a few things must be kept in mind. First, AlphaZero still makes use of a Monte Carlo Tree Search algorithm to search for good moves. MCTS is a powerful algorithm with a very limited scope: zero-sum, perfect information games. So for instance, it would be very difficult to see how to use MCTS-based AlphaZero in, e.g., training self-driving cars. Second, the AlphaZero architecture is preci…

Those vectors are only used to generate the move trees though. That part of the architecture is common to pretty much all MCTS board game AIs ever. The value in AlphaZero is in the neural nets used for the expert policy and the value functions and those don’t have anything about the game rules encoded into them at all. I agree it’s probably quite constrained in the range of possible applications. Everyone was expecti…

>> The value in AlphaZero is in the neural nets used for the expert policy and the value functions and those don’t have anything about the game rules encoded into them at all.

They do, in the form of their inputs that are basically vector representations of a checkerboard. It's obvious that the two (types of) networks can learn something useful from that particular representation of a problem. But- other representations, of different problems? That is not obvious.

Re: Likelihood of discontinuous progress around the development of AGI

#50

About AlphaZero particularly, a few things must be kept in mind. First, AlphaZero still makes use of a Monte Carlo Tree Search algorithm to search for good moves. MCTS is a powerful algorithm with a very limited scope: zero-sum, perfect information games. So for instance, it would be very difficult to see how to use MCTS-based AlphaZero in, e.g., training self-driving cars. Second, the AlphaZero architecture is preci…

So, AlphaZero doesn't mean we're closer to _general_ AI. Quite the contrary: it's a very specialised form of AI that will be very difficult to use in any different task than chess, shoggi or go. This is a very true statement and one that I think a lot of people who aren't in ML/DL, but are "worried" about AGI, miss. There is however a common thread with everyone in AI, that they tend to think of AGI as "One algorithm…

I disagree. The naming convention [Artificial Intelligence] still is a large shoe that these purpose built applied engineering solutions have yet to fill. Meanwhile, for profit/notoriety/marketing people want to trample on yet another name space? What you just described is essentially the architecture of a self-driving car. It's yet another applied engineering solution of Artificial Intelligence. It is not Artificial General Intelligence. Scaling/Distributing the computational space of an applied Artificial Intelligence solution is not Artificial General Intelligence. This is the same thing that lead to optimization algorithms being called Artificial Intelligence. If you aren't able to maintain foundational distinguishment, you lose track of what you're searching for and trying to achieve. Outwardly, you capture more money and attention. Inwardly, you become unraveled and lose your capability to solve the elusive problem. Eventually after much fame, wealth, and feigned 'success', one asks themselves : Was it worth it? Depends on what your original aim was.
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