Live data from Hacker News

Likelihood of discontinuous progress around the development of AGI

aiimpacts.org

21–30 of 111 posts

Re: Likelihood of discontinuous progress around the development of AGI

#21
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This also assumes intelligence is the limiting factor for solving many problems. I suspect information and computation is probably the larger factor for most major issues. The smartest player possible would still lose poker to someone that can read their hand.

I agree that information is crucial to achieve a 'win' for many goals. Given today's amount of information on the Internet as well as electronic money and access to most officials, barring some sort of inviolable built-in moral core, an AGI would be able to use any methods, overt and covert, direct and cunning, technical and social, to achieve its information goals. [1] Since an AGI can copy itself and be available a…

[AGI Developer]

A controller/overseer can easily limit/block this sufficiently and securely. Were talking about hardware/software. There are systems/standardized approaches to solving this problem. The 'Control/Safety' problem for AI are lauded as theoretical and new. However, they are not. They are solved by industry standard approaches day in and out. Any seasoned/experienced engineer in this field could solve this with known approaches.

> Since an AGI can copy itself and be available at a multitude of access points at once

Same comment above applies. This can only occur if done by a controller/overseer. Real-life isn't a sci-fi movie... There's engineering involved.

> AGI changing x,y,z

Not possible unless it is given access. Solved easily in industry standard ways.

Re: Likelihood of discontinuous progress around the development of AGI

#22
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That counterargument makes a lot of sense. I wonder why I never see it discussed anywhere? It might explain why humans are all close in intelligence to each other. Eg even with seven billion people we’ve never seen someone with a 500 iq. Or that you can explain the work done by the smartest human to someone with average iq if you invested some time building up their knowledge.

> Eg even with seven billion people we’ve never seen someone with a 500 iq. For two reasons. First of all IQ is defined as a normal distribution with a mean of 100 and a sd15. So by definition only 0.1% of the population can have an IQ of above 145 and this fraction is rapidly diminishing with additional standard deviations. Secondl: the definition matches reality reasonably well because intelligence is a polygenetic…

But that sd15 is an empirical fit, is it not, reflecting the variance seen in the actual population?

Re: Likelihood of discontinuous progress around the development of AGI

#24
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That counterargument makes a lot of sense. I wonder why I never see it discussed anywhere? It might explain why humans are all close in intelligence to each other. Eg even with seven billion people we’ve never seen someone with a 500 iq. Or that you can explain the work done by the smartest human to someone with average iq if you invested some time building up their knowledge.

> Eg even with seven billion people we’ve never seen someone with a 500 iq. For two reasons. First of all IQ is defined as a normal distribution with a mean of 100 and a sd15. So by definition only 0.1% of the population can have an IQ of above 145 and this fraction is rapidly diminishing with additional standard deviations. Secondl: the definition matches reality reasonably well because intelligence is a polygenetic…

A series of connected games [society] is constructed by various groups in mankind. They all have common traits. A human being having no understanding of intelligence creates a measure of potential success in these games [society]. It is called an IQ test. It has nothing to do w/ actual intelligence as there is no fundamental understanding of it. Instead, it correlates to a potential for success in the games certain individuals have constructed. Change the game and the potential for success does as well. Far too much weight is put on the intelligence Quotient especially given a lack of understanding as to what intelligence is and the clearly skewed games mankind creates [society].

Also, I'm still confused as to what you mean by : AGI concern. What's the concern? What's the big fear?

Re: Likelihood of discontinuous progress around the development of AGI

#25

We know that for most problems, a group of people tends to be better at problem solving than an individual [1]. Even if AI technology only reaches human-level and does not exceed it, continually increasing efficiency would make AI smarter than any small groups of humans and immense bandwidth relative to human communications would make it more effective than any large human organizations. [1] https://aiimpacts.org/coo…

[AGI Developer here] > the real barrier for AGI is software and not hardware. This is indeed true. It has actually been true for some time. AGI is computable on present day hardware if one has enough knowledge on how to correctly structure it. A fundamental understanding of intelligence is the first step. How one crafts this understanding into software is the second step. Hardware reached capability in recent years.…

From what I gather from your comment above and another one, the AGI you talk about does not include general intent or free will to act differently from what its creators anticipate. An AGI, perhaps a different variety from yours, can behave outside of our predictions in multiple ways [1], unless we truly solve the problem of constraining its will to a range that is acceptable to us.

(I do not believe anyone has solved that. Ref: A talk by Prof. Stuart Russell, AAAI fellow and author of the standard textbook on AI: https://www.ted.com/talks/stuart_russell_3_principles_for_cr...)

[1] Note that there are incentives for at least some groups to develop a highly capable AGI with the characteristics I describe.

> Time is still required like with all things.

I agree that time is required but an AGI can multiply itself and collect all requisite information from the world quite quickly. There is so much available to learn just from the Internet if it knows how to learn independently like humans do. Computational resources might be a bottleneck but presumably a human-level AGI can at least do online work at a minimum wage (e.g. translating documents, simple accounting, ...). It can parallelly execute many 'brains' to accomplish more work to acquire more resources, to do more work profitably....

Humans are limited by 24 hours a day. An AGI can over a fairly short amount of time (months) accumulate sufficient resources to make thousands or millions of its copies perhaps with variations to specialize for different kinds of work. Over time, it should gain experience to perform more and more highly-valued work as well.

> A game with disadvantaged players. A game with incomplete information. A game whose rules/dynamics change frequently to suit inside players.

A smart AGI can form alliance and share benefits with inside players and execute any cunning strategies not available to humans who at least need to take into account law enforcement. There are many other advantages an AGI has over human organizations (some of which I mentioned above).

Re: Likelihood of discontinuous progress around the development of AGI

#26

We know that for most problems, a group of people tends to be better at problem solving than an individual [1]. Even if AI technology only reaches human-level and does not exceed it, continually increasing efficiency would make AI smarter than any small groups of humans and immense bandwidth relative to human communications would make it more effective than any large human organizations. [1] https://aiimpacts.org/coo…

I am not entirely convinced by the 'most problems are exponentially hard' argument, as problem-solving often has synergistic effects - e.g. consider calculus, developed in solving the problem of planetary orbits, but useful for so much more.

On the other hand, trying to discern a general rule from historical data is complicated by the fact that the number of problem-solvers has been growing exponentially.

Re: Likelihood of discontinuous progress around the development of AGI

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That counterargument makes a lot of sense. I wonder why I never see it discussed anywhere? It might explain why humans are all close in intelligence to each other. Eg even with seven billion people we’ve never seen someone with a 500 iq. Or that you can explain the work done by the smartest human to someone with average iq if you invested some time building up their knowledge.

Thanks. I came up with that myself although I would like to see if someone can poke holes on it [1]. I am aware that many NP-hard problems, for example, usually have good approximate solutions in non-pathological cases. So that could be a big hole in that argument. Could a theoretical computer scientist give more insight on this? In particular, what is the hardness of approximate solutions to most problems that could…

[AGI Developer]

I'll instead give you something to consider : * The totality of mathematics is not fully defined. As such, there are can be completely new mathematics that destroys previous conceptions especially as it relates to the limits of computability. Theoretical Limits often reflect one's limited scope of perception. Your limits or the limits someone theorized ages ago aren't necessarily my limits if I find a path beyond them.

Information theory and computational complexity theory are theories... Solving fundamental aspects of intelligence will invalidate a host of theories, create new mathematics, new algorithms, and new theories. Continuing to frame something as ground breaking as an understanding/implementation of intelligence in yester-years theoretical limits is flawed.

Re: Likelihood of discontinuous progress around the development of AGI

#28
post #15

It's an interesting read, but perhaps it only succeeds in pointing out the gaps in our knowledge. When I read their counterargument to the possibility of intelligence explosion: "Positive feedback loops are common in the world, and very rarely move fast enough and far enough to become a dominant dynamic in the world." the idea that immediately comes to mind is the Harmless Supernova Fallacy, described on this (obnoxi…

I think the reasoning in the arguments is left a little loose on purpose simply because it is so difficult make strong arguments about something we know so little about.

It is difficult to make arguments in something that has no grounding. I'd expect someone who claims to have a valid argument for an [intelligence explosion] event to have formal education and industry experience designing computational systems such that they could clearly define how exactly it could occur. I have yet to see such an individual w/ such a viewpoint. Instead, I see a ridiculous argument being forwarded by people who are least informed/experienced so as to push fear, uncertainty, doubt either for profit/attention or because it fulfills some sci-fi oriented religious prophecy. Internally, companies require extensive and well reasoned documentation before funding an initiative. Externally, someone w/ no expertise/proof throws their hands up in the air speaking about armageddon and they are able to secure considerable attention and money.

Re: Likelihood of discontinuous progress around the development of AGI

#29
About AlphaZero particularly, a few things must be kept in mind.

First, AlphaZero still makes use of a Monte Carlo Tree Search algorithm to search for good moves. MCTS is a powerful algorithm with a very limited scope: zero-sum, perfect information games. So for instance, it would be very difficult to see how to use MCTS-based AlphaZero in, e.g., training self-driving cars.

Second, the AlphaZero architecture is precisely mapped onto a checkerboard and will not learn anything about games that don't use a checkerboard, or any situation that is not possible to model as a game played on a checkerboard.

Third, the AlphaZero architecture is also precisely mapped onto the range of moves of pieces in chess, shoggi and go. Again, AlphaZero would be useless in any game that used pieces with different moves (e.g. a piece with a zig-zag move, or a piece allowed to move in spirals etc).

All of the above of course can be mitigated with different architectural choices, but to make those choices, implement them and validate them will take a great deal of time.

So, AlphaZero doesn't mean we're closer to _general_ AI. Quite the contrary: it's a very specialised form of AI that will be very difficult to use in any different task than chess, shoggi or go.

Re: Likelihood of discontinuous progress around the development of AGI

#30

We know that for most problems, a group of people tends to be better at problem solving than an individual [1]. Even if AI technology only reaches human-level and does not exceed it, continually increasing efficiency would make AI smarter than any small groups of humans and immense bandwidth relative to human communications would make it more effective than any large human organizations. [1] https://aiimpacts.org/coo…

[AGI Developer here] > the real barrier for AGI is software and not hardware. This is indeed true. It has actually been true for some time. AGI is computable on present day hardware if one has enough knowledge on how to correctly structure it. A fundamental understanding of intelligence is the first step. How one crafts this understanding into software is the second step. Hardware reached capability in recent years.…

>> AGI is computable on present day hardware if one has enough knowledge on how to correctly structure it. (...) Hardware reached capability in recent years.

How could you possibly know anything regarding whether this is true or not, given that we know nothing about AGI?

Also, may I ask what you mean by "AGI Developer"?

Post reply on HN