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CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

theguardian.com

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Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#41

Post by CodeWriter23 »

mschuster91 wrote: post #38
IIAOPSW wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking points spewed out by media personalities. Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? Not trying to be facetious, but I'm incredulous.

> Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? It is extremely hard and works only with people not entirely webbed into "alternative media". I managed to get only one attendant of a Nazi march to rethink his views. In three years. Conspiracy theories are hard to break out of, especially for those without a job and doing nothing but watch "freemen of the land", "e…

Check out how many minds this man has changed. https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinc...

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#42

Post by knz »

dgzl wrote: post #26
knz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus. So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking poi…

I used to be highly political on Facebook. From my experience, people just don't care.

Do it in person and don't approach it as a conversation specifically about politics - "Did you see x in the news? Crazy huh?" is better than "Here is this hilarious meme about Republicans/Democrats!" etc.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#43

Post by sanderjd »

IIAOPSW wrote: post #20
knz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus. So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking poi…

>So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking points spewed out by media personalities. Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? Not trying to be facetious, but I'm incredulous.

I largely share your incredulity, but allow me to make a more optimistic counterpoint.

I frequently change my mind, which is proof that one or more people out there are changing at least one person's mind. And here's the thing: in nearly all cases, the person or, more often, the people who change my mind never know it. I am often stubborn in the moment and unwilling to admit I've been swayed. More often, I don't realize that I have been swayed until I revisit the conversation over the next months, while adding in new information from other conversations or things I'm reading with a developing perspective. Sometimes my mind changes so slowly that I don't even notice it did until someone quotes back to me the now (obviously! objectively!) wrong thing I used to think.

My point is this: you may be changing minds without knowing it. And another point: even if you aren't, you are likely benefitting personally from having meaningful conversations with people.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#44

Post by reitanqild »

IIAOPSW wrote: post #20
knz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus. So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking poi…

>So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking points spewed out by media personalities. Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? Not trying to be facetious, but I'm incredulous.

Works.

Proof: me.

I've changed my mind on certain topics - esp drugs and to a certain degree AGW based on discussions.

Protip: calling me a troll, paid shill, downvoting honest questions doesn't work on people like me.

I do however listen to reasonable arguments and take pride in being able to change my mind.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#45

Post by mschuster91 »

CodeWriter23 wrote: post #41
mschuster91 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? It is extremely hard and works only with people not entirely webbed into "alternative media". I managed to get only one attendant of a Nazi march to rethink his views. In three years. Conspiracy theories are hard to break out of, especially for those without a job and doing nothing but watch "freemen of the land", "e…

Check out how many minds this man has changed. https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinc...

This, sorry, were different times, however I admire the patience of this man.

Today it is possible for someone to hear, watch and read only fake news all day without having any kind of dissenting viewpoint, compared to prior times where the only exposure was the weekly KKK gathering and maybe some letters. It is way harder (or impossible!) to break through the psychological walls the exposure to this shit creates.

In addition, today's fake news and right wing propaganda is specifically engineered to appeal to the lowest prime instincts only, and Facebook's algorithms only intensify the problem as they keep feeding you more and more poison.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#46

Post by ImSkeptical »

maxxxxx wrote: post #30
matte_black wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t say it’s their value system, rather it’s a result of the enormous pressure they face. Torture should only be used as a last resort, and when there’s no other hope of getting information that is needed ASAP.

It's the value system. Either you follow the laws and values of your country always or you don't. You can't protect values by violating them.

I think that's a bit extreme and a black and white way of thinking.

For example, suppose you're heading an FBI group, and you've got a suicidal terrorist in custody who is part of a plot to detonate a nuclear bomb in LA. You have excellent evidence this guy is involved, and that the terrorists probably have a nuclear bomb in the country, and, if they realize their coconspirator has been captured, they are likely to detonate immediately.

The terrorist demands to see his lawyer. Your specialists say you should deny that request, because his lawyer may signal, intentionally or otherwise, the other terrorists. Should you allow the terrorist to meet with his lawyer?

Our society's laws say he should be able to see his lawyer. We value that kind of thing. And yet, if you would risk millions of lives to protect this right... Well, that seems perverse to me.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#47

Post by nickysielicki »

IIAOPSW wrote: post #4

That's real optimistic of the Guardian but somehow I doubt there's all that much grass roots support against rendition flights. We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus.

It's cheap of you to try to conflate the issue of torturing prisoners with the issue of restrictions on immigration. It is not inconsistent to support immigration restrictions on countries with Muslim extremists while simultaneously being against the torture of prisoners. You're tapping into identity politics.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#48

Post by maxxxxx »

ImSkeptical wrote: post #46
maxxxxx wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the value system. Either you follow the laws and values of your country always or you don't. You can't protect values by violating them.

I think that's a bit extreme and a black and white way of thinking. For example, suppose you're heading an FBI group, and you've got a suicidal terrorist in custody who is part of a plot to detonate a nuclear bomb in LA. You have excellent evidence this guy is involved, and that the terrorists probably have a nuclear bomb in the country, and, if they realize their coconspirator has been captured, they are likely to d…

Real life is not an action movie. Your scenario is totally made up and has probably almost never happened.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#49

Post by catawbasam »

matte_black wrote: post #33
maxxxxx wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the value system. Either you follow the laws and values of your country always or you don't. You can't protect values by violating them.

Easy to say, but in the real world there is a conflict between values and results. Values don’t need protection, they are intangible. In the end what you are protecting is people.

People must speak up for values and ideals. Otherwise their power will fade. Results without values are hollow.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#50

Post by jacquesm »

matte_black wrote: post #33
maxxxxx wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the value system. Either you follow the laws and values of your country always or you don't. You can't protect values by violating them.

Easy to say, but in the real world there is a conflict between values and results. Values don’t need protection, they are intangible. In the end what you are protecting is people.

While utilitarian arguments can be a factor in an ethical framework they are not beneficial in isolation and will lead to grave injustices. If protecting people would be the real goal then many actions that were committed ostensibly for 'the greater good' were in fact ultimately net negatives and effectively harmed far more people than were protected. Part of the problem with utilitarian arguments is that we never have all the variables. It also should be noted that 'people' tends to be silently redefined as 'our people' and that this further skews the outcome towards the horrific.

Before you know it you're torturing people, gassing them or doing other unspeakable things to them because you've worked out some kind of equation where your predicted outcome justifies your horrible actions.

Values only matter when there is a price attached to them, it is very easy to have high standards for morality when they are essentially free.

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