Computer science is no science at all.
Why is computer science a sausage fest?
41–50 of 155 posts
Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
"I like video games" often translates to "I want to work in the video game industry" often translates to "I'll learn how to program." More generally, however, enthusiasm for video games makes kids keenly aware of the hardware that makes it possible. (Even at the age of ten, kids will get into console wars citing which has the faster processor, etc.) Having that technical background from an early age, however rudiment…
I don't know about that. Since we're going on anecdotal evidence, out of my 25 or so friends who play videogames, I'm the only one who programs. An analog to your statement would be: "I like movies" often translates into "I want to work in the film industry"
Note that I'm using "often" to mean "happens with statistically significant frequency," as opposed to something like "happens most of the time."
> An analog to your statement would be: "I like movies" often translates into "I want to work in the film industry"
But that's actually true, with the most desired movie-inspired career being actor/actress. The difference is that people give up this idea a lot more easily, because they realize that the odds of being a movie star are incredibly low. Analogous to liking rock music and wanting to be a rock star.
Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?
#43[deleted]
Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?
#44Obviously anyone making any comment about this article is wandering into a minefield of appearing sexist. While I agree with the sentiment (attracting girls into CS is OK, putting some money at the end of a stick is OK, and CS will benefit from them being there), one of the points did bother me.
The first time I spoke at a conference, John Allsopp contacted me to ask if I would do it. I never would have submitted a proposal. You might say that I should have, but I would counter that I shouldn’t need to act like a dude to get respect.
To which I shall counter, but you should have. This is an attitude of entitlement. "I am not the way you work, but I am a girl, thus everything is much harder for me, so I am entitled to have people bend over backwards telling me how wonderful I am and flattering me by asking me to speak at a conference."
She makes the assumption that all men are speaking at conferences too; but they're not. Speaking at a conference is an honor. We've seen lots of stuff on HN about how people make their own luck. If people are hungry, they will make things happen. She wasn't hungry. She didn't want to speak. That's not a girl thing, that's just her. There are plenty of men in that boat too.
These articles, as alanh described, are almost always strewn with male sexism too. I'm sad to see that this one is the same way.
The wider question is not one of male/female, but of equality in general. Locker-room antics (of which I am guilty), work/life balance, teaching of the sciences and engineering in schools... these are all things that need to be reviewed about equality, not an us vs them, male vs female, attitude.
Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
"I like video games" often translates to "I want to work in the video game industry" often translates to "I'll learn how to program." More generally, however, enthusiasm for video games makes kids keenly aware of the hardware that makes it possible. (Even at the age of ten, kids will get into console wars citing which has the faster processor, etc.) Having that technical background from an early age, however rudiment…
I don't know about that. Since we're going on anecdotal evidence, out of my 25 or so friends who play videogames, I'm the only one who programs. An analog to your statement would be: "I like movies" often translates into "I want to work in the film industry"
I remember an article on HN a while ago, that partitioned people into "people that are interested in One Thing, Everything, or Nothing." For the people interested in One Thing or Nothing, your comment sounds perfectly rational; but for the people interested in Everything, that's exactly how it is. "I like movies, books, games, music, math, tall buildings, rockets, genetically-engineered plants, [...] and so I want to learn how to make all of those things."
Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?
#46"CS education also focuses a lot of effort on puzzles and very abstract concepts when practical applications where you can see the why and how might work better for women (and a hell of a lot of men). I like yummy algorithms, but we could make CS education more accessible by putting them in context." Why must we make a field more accessible? It would also be more accessible if we just threw BS degrees off the back of…
It also doesn't seem to account for the reduction in gender diversity over the past 20 years or so. Around 1990, women were around 35% of CS majors, and today, they're around 17%. What accounts for that drop? I don't think it can be "puzzles and very abstract concepts". If anything, the core theory/systems/PLs areas have declined as a proportion of the overall CS curriculum over that time period, and more application…
I was under the impression (and by impression I mean I have no idea where I read this and thus cannot back up anything I say) that the problem was at the secondary schooling level; girls started out with a healthy interest in science and engineering when they begin at 11 or 12, but that interest level rapidly decreases as they move through schooling.
The question is what is happening in the way we're teaching girls that they get so turned off by it? Obviously its not innate, because as you note, there used be a lot more women graduating with CS. I guess there could also be a societal argument as well, but I wouldn't know enough about the cultural norms of 1990 to comment.
Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?
#47As usual, I like Philip Greenspun's explanation better than all of the anecdotes and fuzzy generalizations in this blog post: http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/acm-women-in-computing http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science tl;dr: It's because the women who would do well in CS/STEM have much better paying, or easier, or more prestigious options available to them.
The problem I have with that logic is, why wouldn't men decide the same thing?
The author's reasoning seems to be
1. young men strive to achieve high status among their peer group
2. men tend to lack perspective and are unable to step back and ask the question "is this peer group worth impressing?"
I suppose this is just as valid of a hypothesis, but I don't think it is good enough to simply dismiss the other one.
Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?
#48A "sausage fest"? Classy rhetoric! Is nursing a "tits fest" or elementary education a "vagina fest"? It'll be great when intelligent people can stop identifying themselves or their sense of humor by their genitalia, race, or any other physical characteristic that has little to do with how good they can be as people . I agree that women might not want to hear "dick jokes" or "be groped" but most people don't regardles…
You're completely right, of course—but I have to point out that elementary education is a "vagina fest", and not even a self-selected one. There is definite discrimination preventing men from entering the field—mostly by parents who don't want men around their kids.
Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
None of which in any way contradicts what she said.
except for the whole women are "not doctors" thing.
That depends on whether they go on to become doctors, veterinarians and dentists instead of assistants to those. The fact that someone has a certain education does not preclude them from ending up in a more assistive job related to the education. In fact, if women are still underrepresented among new doctors, veterinarians and dentists, that would be a likely explanation.
Re: Why is computer science a sausage fest?
#50CS education works best for people who already know how to code before they begin. CS teaches the theory behind a practice in which they assume you already have some skill. Women are less likely to already know, because they don’t play video games as much. This does not make any sense. How does playing video games translate to coding skill?
"I like video games" often translates to "I want to work in the video game industry" often translates to "I'll learn how to program." More generally, however, enthusiasm for video games makes kids keenly aware of the hardware that makes it possible. (Even at the age of ten, kids will get into console wars citing which has the faster processor, etc.) Having that technical background from an early age, however rudiment…
When I got into college I had no idea what a computer program was nor had I ever been exposed to anything related to programming. Despite that one of my first classes was C programming. Not by choice, but because the curriculum was chosen by my advisor. It didn't really hit me that I was learning how to program until about a week into it. Now I'm a professional software developer. My point is that you do not have to go into college knowing anything about programming to study it.