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Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

blog.hostedgraphite.com

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Re: Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

#41

Post by MrQuincle »

jdblair wrote: post #33
conductr wrote: post #30

On the other hand, if you were going to write your job posting the pre-edit way and the said applicant was turned off by it... will they even be a good fit in your org? Do you want to continue editing all of your communications? I’m kind of being devils advocate here but I do find it a drag to work with people who can’t read between the lines sometimes and get the gist of what someone means rather than feeling exclud…

So you actually do want a workplace culture that alienates women and people of color? [edit, but leaving original off-the-cuff comment] I think if your goal is to create an inclusive workplace then editing your communications in ways like this will be useful. I think its incorrect to think that being inclusive means hiring people that aren't confident in their skills.

I was actually surprised about the "alienates women and people of color" references. I couldn't find anything in the first job descriptions that was relating to gender, etc.

They were just more focused on personal growth in the second description. Rightfully so! But maybe I didn't get some subtle clues (just European). :-)

Re: Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

#43

Post by clairity »

TACIXAT wrote: post #16
clairity wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i think you might be conflating the discouragement of a behavior with the application of an identity to people, something the article seems to try to avoid. hostedgraphite isn't saying they don't want competent programmers, even if they've copped the brogrammer attitude in the past, but rather, to leave the brogrammer stance at the door. if you can't do that, then (and only then) don't apply for the job because you p…

I understand that their message is "this is not a frat". However, I still absolutely hate the pejorative usage of brogrammer. People do not use it to exclusively refer to culture. It is absolutely a label that is applied to people. Sitting here, I feel like I am part of the specter of brogrammers that looms over the industry. Whether it was their intended usage or not, I feel like this term is referring to programmer…

i agree that it’s often used pejoratively to define people. i was not trying to justify that kind of usage. i was simply pointing out that the article generally uses the term as an adjective, not as a noun (i.e., it’s something you can wear, not something you can be).

however you are right that the called-out text from the job ad uses it as a noun, unfortunately.

i’m curious why the phrasing makes you feel it’s toxic toward you personally (without a preconception either way on my part)?

Re: Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

#44

Post by clairity »

SomeStupidPoint wrote: post #21
clairity wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i think you might be conflating the discouragement of a behavior with the application of an identity to people, something the article seems to try to avoid. hostedgraphite isn't saying they don't want competent programmers, even if they've copped the brogrammer attitude in the past, but rather, to leave the brogrammer stance at the door. if you can't do that, then (and only then) don't apply for the job because you p…

I get what they were trying to say; the way that they said it was inappropriate because it was structured as an attack on stereotypes and no kind of call out to behavior. And that is particularly egregious in a post about how word choice can make your job less appealing to groups.

ok, i see what you're saying after re-skimming the article. and yes, behavior over labels is a better approach.

Re: Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

#45

Post by fleitz »

ng12 wrote: post #31
bighi wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the one "no..." sentence that I'd leave there. It serves to distinguish them from the a particular culture. That message is lost when you just say "nice, caring humans".

Don't you think it's odd to be replacing a non-inclusive culture by creating a new one?

Life involves choices, most of the reason I dislike the 'no brogrammer/ninja/rockstar/competent people' culture is because its so wishy-washy about what it actually does and does not like.

I'd rather know that my talents aren't welcome than waste time in meetings explaining why their feels don't make the code work. There are plenty of companies that want people who can manage to code something that works without involving 16 other people.

There are plenty of people who want to work in that environment and it helps me filter out the places I don't want to work by knowing they don't want individual contributors.

Re: Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

#47

Post by conductr »

jdblair wrote: post #33
conductr wrote: post #30

On the other hand, if you were going to write your job posting the pre-edit way and the said applicant was turned off by it... will they even be a good fit in your org? Do you want to continue editing all of your communications? I’m kind of being devils advocate here but I do find it a drag to work with people who can’t read between the lines sometimes and get the gist of what someone means rather than feeling exclud…

So you actually do want a workplace culture that alienates women and people of color? [edit, but leaving original off-the-cuff comment] I think if your goal is to create an inclusive workplace then editing your communications in ways like this will be useful. I think its incorrect to think that being inclusive means hiring people that aren't confident in their skills.

This is why I had to put the devil's advocate part in my original comment because of this accusation. Obviously, I do not agree with purposely creating a workplace that alienates women but it would take me much editing/censorship and thought than I'm willing to give to make sure I don't write something in a way that you could misconstrue my words.

I'm simply pointing out that what I am for is being who we are as individuals. Everyone. If you exclude yourself because of the way I write my job posting, then we probably wouldn't work well together. If I over edit my job posting and it doesn't reflect the way I actually communicate on a day to day basis; guess what, we probably wouldn't work well together either. Why? Because I'm not going to edit my communication style, I'm going to be who I am.

If I'm the author of the original job posting... You're coming from the stance of assuming that I need to be edited. My communication style is horrible and exclusive. None of those words were offensive, obviously exclusive, etc[1]. So, I don't think I do need editing. I'm not an asshole, I work well with women and people of all types, thus I am not going to change. However your view assumes because I wrote my job posting that way that I am a women alienating asshole that does not value inclusion.

I want people that can work together and not let minor communication issues get in the way of their productivity or happiness. We should be teaching people how to read a job posting and infer that they could be a fit and apply. Applying is far away from accepting the job, if you sense any red flags you will have an opportunity to explore them. Don't get held up by the job posting.

[1] Okay - I do not agree with the use of rockstar & ninja terms

Re: Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

#48

Post by [deleted] »

Kluny wrote: post #19
interlocutor wrote: post #13

Can someone define what a "rockstar programmer" is and why a company would want to not hire rockstar programmers? Here's one definition I found: http://www.urbandictionary.com/author.php?author=ChrisTTT A computer programmer with such strong skills and so much specific experience that they are the equivalent of a rock star in the domain of software. Many people play guitar pretty well, but only a few become rock star…

I'll tackle this. - If they are expected to do 5-10 times the amount of software development as a regular new programmer, are they going to be offered 5-10 times the regular salary? - Are all the other programmers at the company dramatically more effective than a regular programmer? Most competent people don't think of themselves as being exceptionally better than their peers, so if that's the case, they probably sho…

[deleted]

Re: Practical tips for writing inclusive job ads (2016)

#50

Post by dominotw »

happypants23 wrote: post #17

I'll add one - I immediately ignore any job ad that contains anything along the lines of "Work in an exciting/agile fast-paced, dynamic environment", which pretty much signals that only youngsters need apply. Of course, if the job really is chaotic and high-stress, then that signal should probably stay in the job ad.

https://s1.postimg.org/7m2i2xo5pr/jobad.jpg
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