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In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

heterodoxacademy.org

41–50 of 235 posts

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#41
post #29

>"Does that make Wax a white supremacist for saying that culture matters for poverty-related outcomes, that not all cultures are equally good for escaping poverty, and that the 1950s American “bourgeois cultural script” was particularly good for that purpose?" This is the core premise of the article, the conclusion, of course, being 'no'. Unfortunately, it does not accurately deal with the fairly clear subtext being…

I think the evidence of mass emigration from White European countries in the recent past does enough to prove her point wrong.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#42
post #7

If 'all cultures are not equal' is a false statement then we're stating 'all cultures are equal' which I interpret as saying there is no metric by which we can measure the 'goodness' or 'effectiveness' of a culture. So let's accept the statement 'all cultures are equal' at face value: all cultures are equal and therefore there exists no metric for measuring 'goodness' or 'effectiveness.' If C(now) captures my current…

>If that's what's actually meant by the phrase 'all cultures are equal' [...] then it should be stated as such because

Not to split hairs, but you were the one who phrased it like that.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#43

I think underlying many of these discussions is a fundamental question: "If not all cultures and values are equally successful in modern society, should we (as a society) encourage people to adopt a more successful values, or should we adapt society to make all cultures and values equally successful?" (edit: obviously I have biases, but I tried to phase this in a way that masked my biases. If there's a more neutral w…

The only way to accomplish the latter is to pull the excellent down to the level of mediocrity or worse. How do you propose to raise up a culture that doesn't value creativity and hard work, for example, to the level of success of one that does. Culture is much more than what food you eat and music you listen to. This reminds me of a famous Tocqueville quote: There is in fact a manly and legitimate passion for equali…

Where's the instinct towards doing nothing and minding your own business? I feel left out.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#44
post #7

If 'all cultures are not equal' is a false statement then we're stating 'all cultures are equal' which I interpret as saying there is no metric by which we can measure the 'goodness' or 'effectiveness' of a culture. So let's accept the statement 'all cultures are equal' at face value: all cultures are equal and therefore there exists no metric for measuring 'goodness' or 'effectiveness.' If C(now) captures my current…

Good and bad is in the eye of the beholder and what you value.

Is American culture (a loaded term because American culture is the product of numerous sub-cultures) better than all other cultures because of our economic strength? If not, then what are the objective measures that define a "good" culture.

I'm very glad slavery doesn't exist, because I value equality and freedom. Yet still, I'd ask who is the authority that determines that one culture is better than another because they hold that value?

Europeans via too many systems to name here (e.g. colonizing much of the world, forcing religion on indigenous people, slavery, apartheid, etc.) imposed their cultural values on the world and then held them up as the best.

Ultimately, it's not right to conflate what you believe with what is objectively good. It all depends what your solving for (e.g. profit, equality, harmony, etc.)

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#45

A lot of the people who hold these sort of viewpoints in the US would benefit immensely from visiting and even living for a while in literally any other western democracy, or even just the English-speaking ones. I can't think of any country in the western world who has a social welfare system on the same low level as the US - and yet we don't have such a 'decline in social indicators'. Quite the opposite. And we are…

> I can't think of any country in the western world who has a social welfare system on the same low level as the US - and yet we don't have such a 'decline in social indicators'. Quite the opposite.

But I thought the paper said "That trend also accelerated the destructive consequences of the growing welfare state, which, by taking over financial support of families, reduced the need for two parents."

The US has a welfare state if the banks need a TARP bailout, or if Cheney needs more contracts for Halliburton etc. Not so much for the rest of us. Actually, the inflation-adjusted hourly wage is lower in the US now than it was in the early 1970s.

One difference you have to remember about the US is the history of Africans in the US. There was slavery until 1865, then Jim Crow, then in the 1960s there was segregation, lack of voting rights, restriction on those of African background drinking from certain water fountains, sitting in certain bus seats, using certain bathrooms etc. Peaceful demonstrations against this were greeted by police dogs, fire hoses, batons, as well as extra-judicial Ku Klux Klan murders, bombings etc. Any how, some attempt to remedy this started in 1964 but by the 1978 Bakke ruling there was already enormous pushback. In fact Reagan announced his presidential candidacy in an obscure rural town unknown for anything aside from three people registering black people to vote being killed their by the Klan. As has been in the news, a white supremacist killed someone this year because they wanted a Civil War statue in their town taken down. In short, the US from its beginning to now has expended an enormous amount of energy in subjugating people of African background. Google has very few engineers of African background, but fellow engineers like James Damore are incensed even about that due to what he perceives as his biological superiority. Now he's a hero on HN and much of the US. Polls show the majority of Americans are against towns taking down their civil war statues, and state legislatures are forbidding towns from tearing down statues celebrating a slaveholder uprising against the US government.

The writer mentioned talks about the "the anti-'acting white' rap culture of inner-city blacks". Even putting aside what I mentioned before, the "rap culture" is marketed by and controlled by the big media corporations. The real indigeneous inner-city black culture can more be seen by books written by and for blacks, which you can see in small stores and sidewalk tables, which the white, bourgeois companies don't sell for some reason. Perhaps it's not lucrative enough. In fact blacks have been saying for years that rap culture is bourgie junk corporations try to foist on black youth.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#46
Let's not get bogged down by the all cultures are not equal strawman. That is not at all the key point here. Amy Wax/OP's argument is problematic because it conflates very different things using a subtly disingenuous argument. She starts off by saying something completely uncontroversial: kids from stable marriages do well in school. But she then plays on the audiences implicit biases to imply -- but not explicitly articulate -- a completely unsubstantiated racist claim: inner city blacks are incompatible with an advanced free market economy.

This sleight of hand where the speaker/writer stops just short of an explicitly racist implication that deliberately confuses causation and correlation in the presence of multiple confounding factors is a standard white supremacist parlor trick. That is why Amy Wax was roundly condemned. And the OP's claim that saying anything negative about the (lack of) black marriages is taboo in academia is quite blatantly false. Read for example this gushing review (https://nyti.ms/2kbBHRP) of Ralph Richard Banks' book on the very same topic by Imani Perry.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#47
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this should all be short-circuited by the fact that cultures are not a fixed value that can be compared for equality. Congruence, perhaps, but there are too many moving parts in culture to be able to rank them, which is an implication of solving for a single (imaginary) term.

Right. For example, there is no one "white culture". I'm white, and there are plenty of white people in my home town with whom I share little to no cultural values. Any conversation about relative values of "cultures" is probably better cast as a discussion about cultural memes (in the original Dawkins sense [1]), with the understanding that the flow of memes tend to follow social contours as clusters, and interact w…

meme : atom :: culture : physics

I agree that it's best to inspect culture from the bottom up rather than the top down. Start with the most granular units. Is anyone here acquainted with the current sociological orthodoxy or is that population mutually exclusive with HN commenters? :)

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#48

Here is a follow-up article written by one of the 33 members of the University of Pennsylvania Law School faculty to sign a letter criticizing Amy Wax: Don’t Care if Amy Wax Is Politically Incorrect; I Do Care that She’s Empirically Incorrect https://heterodoxacademy.org/2017/09/03/i-dont-care-if-amy-w...

What concerns me is that people act like she doesn't have the right to write her opinion (it clearly is just her opinion; it was published to the opinion section), without her facing repercussion.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#49
post #29

>"Does that make Wax a white supremacist for saying that culture matters for poverty-related outcomes, that not all cultures are equally good for escaping poverty, and that the 1950s American “bourgeois cultural script” was particularly good for that purpose?" This is the core premise of the article, the conclusion, of course, being 'no'. Unfortunately, it does not accurately deal with the fairly clear subtext being…

Exactly. Can you imagine being a black student from the "inner city" (which has been a dog whistle term since the 90s) and taking a class with her after this? Would you feel like you were being assessed objectively, say if you were late to class once or if you asked for an extension?

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#50
post #22

A lot of the people who hold these sort of viewpoints in the US would benefit immensely from visiting and even living for a while in literally any other western democracy, or even just the English-speaking ones. I can't think of any country in the western world who has a social welfare system on the same low level as the US - and yet we don't have such a 'decline in social indicators'. Quite the opposite. And we are…

It's hard to compare a country like NZ to the US in a fair and meaningful way. NZ is a small, ethnically (and therefore more importantly culturally) homogenous country. Now, it's not completely homogenous, but it is much more so than the US. Being a democracy, the policies of the country are inseparable from its culture and demographics. You say universal healthcare might stem the tide of cultural breakdown. But we c…

>> NZ is a small, ethnically (and therefore more importantly culturally) homogenous country

Not according to the CIA Factbook it isn't:

NZ: European 71.2%, Maori 14.1%, Asian 11.3%, Pacific peoples 7.6%, Middle Eastern, Latin American, African 1.1%, other 1.6%, not stated or unidentified 5.4%

USA: white 72.4%, black 12.6%, Asian 4.8%, Amerindian and Alaska native 0.9%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.2%, other 6.2%, two or more races 2.9% (2010 estimate)

I would say almost quite comparable.

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