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In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

heterodoxacademy.org

21–30 of 235 posts

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#21
post #7

If 'all cultures are not equal' is a false statement then we're stating 'all cultures are equal' which I interpret as saying there is no metric by which we can measure the 'goodness' or 'effectiveness' of a culture. So let's accept the statement 'all cultures are equal' at face value: all cultures are equal and therefore there exists no metric for measuring 'goodness' or 'effectiveness.' If C(now) captures my current…

> But maybe that's not what the phrase actually means: maybe what they really intend to say is we've yet to identify unbiased metrics by which we can use to measure cultures and thus correlate them.

> If that's what's actually meant by the phrase 'all cultures are equal' (and I've never heard of anyone presenting it that way) then it should be stated as such because then we can work toward identifying those metrics so we can objectively improve our own culture.

I agree with you about "all cultures are equal" being a hard statement to defend if you take it to literally and nihilistically to mean that there is no objective way to measure good or bad. Not a lot of people are that nihilistic. Most people believe in some degree of moral relativity and some degree of moral absolutism. It's hard.

I don't have a rigorous proof for my feelings towards this, but I feel like the goal shouldn't be to reduce CULTURE down to KPIs. I don't think we should be putting culture on a scale and asking how it effects the economy because I think it's the kind of bad social science that people on HN usually detest. This is a good letter from one of Wax's critics, posted to Heterodox Academy:

https://heterodoxacademy.org/2017/09/03/i-dont-care-if-amy-w...

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#22

A lot of the people who hold these sort of viewpoints in the US would benefit immensely from visiting and even living for a while in literally any other western democracy, or even just the English-speaking ones. I can't think of any country in the western world who has a social welfare system on the same low level as the US - and yet we don't have such a 'decline in social indicators'. Quite the opposite. And we are…

It's hard to compare a country like NZ to the US in a fair and meaningful way. NZ is a small, ethnically (and therefore more importantly culturally) homogenous country. Now, it's not completely homogenous, but it is much more so than the US.

Being a democracy, the policies of the country are inseparable from its culture and demographics. You say universal healthcare might stem the tide of cultural breakdown. But we cannot be sure the causality doesn't flow the other way. Unfortunately, it's likely a feedback loop. We have bad policy in part due to the cultural and social decline the author describes, and we have cultural and social decline in part due to bad policy. Simply proposing policy changes neglects the complex interdependencies of these things, and is why national demographics are so important in a democracy.

Part of the reason NZ is able to cohere around its policy more than the US is because everyone in NZ (to a greater degree than in the US) shares the same values and cultural identity. This is why you see similarly idyllic societies in the Scandinavian countries. High social cohesion due to shared cultural and ethnic identity. Same in Korea and Japan - although Japanese culture is a good example of some of the downsides of ethnic and cultural homogeneity as well.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#23
post #7

If 'all cultures are not equal' is a false statement then we're stating 'all cultures are equal' which I interpret as saying there is no metric by which we can measure the 'goodness' or 'effectiveness' of a culture. So let's accept the statement 'all cultures are equal' at face value: all cultures are equal and therefore there exists no metric for measuring 'goodness' or 'effectiveness.' If C(now) captures my current…

[deleted]

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#24
post #7

If 'all cultures are not equal' is a false statement then we're stating 'all cultures are equal' which I interpret as saying there is no metric by which we can measure the 'goodness' or 'effectiveness' of a culture. So let's accept the statement 'all cultures are equal' at face value: all cultures are equal and therefore there exists no metric for measuring 'goodness' or 'effectiveness.' If C(now) captures my current…

[deleted]

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#25

I think underlying many of these discussions is a fundamental question: "If not all cultures and values are equally successful in modern society, should we (as a society) encourage people to adopt a more successful values, or should we adapt society to make all cultures and values equally successful?" (edit: obviously I have biases, but I tried to phase this in a way that masked my biases. If there's a more neutral w…

The only way to accomplish the latter is to pull the excellent down to the level of mediocrity or worse. How do you propose to raise up a culture that doesn't value creativity and hard work, for example, to the level of success of one that does. Culture is much more than what food you eat and music you listen to. This reminds me of a famous Tocqueville quote: There is in fact a manly and legitimate passion for equali…

How do you propose to raise up a culture that doesn't value creativity and hard work, for example, to the level of success of one that does.

Lots of welfare, which gets back to the original point about marriage vs. single parents.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#26
All cultures are not equal and few cultures are uniformally isolated. Civilization is a byproduct of cultures interacting and blending.

And human happiness and quality of life is most supported by improving our diets, our education, our expressions and our psychologies.

Enlightenment ideals built the modern world, not relativism. We should be criticizing all cultures and our everyday actions.

"Culture" in some ways is just a random repetition of behavior and ideas. It may conform to environmental pressures but there is nothing intrinsic about it in regards to any ethnicity or race. All humans are lazy, hardworking, intellectual, superficial, selfish and selfless. The difference is which ideas push us in the right directions of our better nature.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#27
post #7

If 'all cultures are not equal' is a false statement then we're stating 'all cultures are equal' which I interpret as saying there is no metric by which we can measure the 'goodness' or 'effectiveness' of a culture. So let's accept the statement 'all cultures are equal' at face value: all cultures are equal and therefore there exists no metric for measuring 'goodness' or 'effectiveness.' If C(now) captures my current…

I feel like this should all be short-circuited by the fact that cultures are not a fixed value that can be compared for equality. Congruence, perhaps, but there are too many moving parts in culture to be able to rank them, which is an implication of solving for a single (imaginary) term.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#28
post #7

If 'all cultures are not equal' is a false statement then we're stating 'all cultures are equal' which I interpret as saying there is no metric by which we can measure the 'goodness' or 'effectiveness' of a culture. So let's accept the statement 'all cultures are equal' at face value: all cultures are equal and therefore there exists no metric for measuring 'goodness' or 'effectiveness.' If C(now) captures my current…

The issue here is applying logic to actions that are predominantly displays of virtue driven by fear of being marked as not belonging to the in group. Reason isn't going to win here unfortunately.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#29
>"Does that make Wax a white supremacist for saying that culture matters for poverty-related outcomes, that not all cultures are equally good for escaping poverty, and that the 1950s American “bourgeois cultural script” was particularly good for that purpose?"

This is the core premise of the article, the conclusion, of course, being 'no'. Unfortunately, it does not accurately deal with the fairly clear subtext being delivered by Ms. Wax.

> "In an interview with The Daily Pennsylvanian about the op-ed, Wax was quoted as saying that “Everyone wants to go to countries ruled by white Europeans,” because, in the phrasing of the DP article’s author, “Anglo-Protestant cultural norms are superior.” … [they then affirm Wax’s right to express her opinions, then say:] We categorically reject Wax’s claims."

This, in particular, is striking. Why is 'being ruled by white Europeans' the draw to migrants over, say, the relative wealth of the west in the aggregate? France and Germany certainly offer troves of opportunity, but is Greece really more of a destination for economic migrants than, say, Singapore? Would India's quasi-british culture provide a counter-example when compared with China's?

The lack of any of these comparative examinations leads us immediately to question the argument provided. Ms. Wax doesn't even make case compelling to show that it was the 1950s script itself, rather than other causes before she jumps into discussing the superiority of the white european ruling establishment. Could it be that America's economic rivals had just been bombed to ash which led to an influx of capital to the country during an era where unions had clout? Nah, its just the fact that it was ruled by white europeans (/s).

Give me a break.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#30

"Nor are the single-parent, antisocial habits, prevalent among some working-class whites; the anti-“acting white” rap culture of inner-city blacks; the anti-assimilation ideas gaining ground among some Hispanic immigrants" Already you lost me. There are plenty of single parents out of wedlock children in very white states like West Virginia, Kentucky, etc. How is rap culture or black people responsible for the action…

>Already you lost me. There are plenty of single parents out of wedlock children in very white states like West Virginia, Kentucky, etc. How is rap culture or black people responsible for the actions of white people in these areas?

Where did the author said it is?

They said there are "single-parent, antisocial habits" that are prevalent among some working-class whites" AND an "anti-“acting white” rap culture of inner-city blacks" AND " anti-assimilation ideas gaining ground among some Hispanic immigrants".

Three kinds of issues -- not an issue and two explanations for it.

>None of these people are against assimilating.

Hence the phrasing "anti-assimilation ideas gaining ground among SOME" -- the author did not write "prevalent in ALL".

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