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Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014)

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Re: Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014)

#41

Post by zaptheimpaler »

chii wrote: post #26
roceasta wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that school math is thought to be 'scary' and 'hard' is not the issue. Plenty of video games are known to be scary and hard. For instance, they contain monsters and are difficult to complete. They even have objective grades (scores). What makes the difference is that video games aren't compulsory. So they represent true play . Which is what makes them educational, unlike a school curriculum, however much it…

There are some aspects of doing math that isn't fun, because it is grinding. Learning the time tables for example - you just have to do lots of exercises to get used to multiplying. No way around that. Just like in sports, where you must also do a lot of basic practise to get good. Making the practise like a game can be done to done degree, but ultimately, a kid is going to see through that after a while, since it ge…

Thats the kind of BS math they shouldn't bother teaching. Most of math is about concepts, and if 5 year olds can grapple with super-basic calculus how about teaching 10 year olds proof-based math and concepts (closer to college level) than memorization?

Its kind of dumb how arithmetic is seen as a precursor to math when its really not. You could do an ENTIRE college-level course in linear algebra or calculus or graph theory or even combinatorics perfectly well even if you have no idea what 11*15 is off the top of your head and have to look it up every time.

Its just a ridiculously backwards approach to teaching. We don't teach CS by testing people on memorizing syntax and API calls - they are rightly relegated to "google it when you need it, eventually you'll remember it". Of course algorithms are more interesting and building things is more fun so we focus on that.

Current way of teaching math is just a historical accident IMO. No real reason it couldn't be conceptual and interesting from the start if there wasn't so much inertia around current systems.

Re: Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014)

#42

Post by bitwize »

kagamine wrote: post #40
gremlinsinc wrote: post #3

I'm not even sure.. arithmetic really needs learned as much anymore... as a dev I rarely use my times table... if I need to calculate something I'll pull up a console and go into a repl and just ask php or ruby to calculate it for me... I know HOW the calculation works and why, but I don't need to know and remember times tables. I like the idea of thinking outside the box on how to teach math and science, as I feel m…

Start watching Countdown, the UK numbers and letters game. You will need your times tables for the math part. There is even a comedy version (same games with added silliness) to keep the interest of 'younger' audiences. Youtube search : 8 out of 10 cats does countdown. It's fun and funny. Here is the 2017 final of the 'proper, serious' Countdown, also on YT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-VdiufVWrw

> There is even a comedy version (same games with added silliness)

I seem to remember one where the hostess wrote the numbers on a huge dick she'd drawn on the board. Thus giving new meaning to "Numberwang".

Re: Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014)

#44

Post by fspear »

chii wrote: post #28
jpamata wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's amazing how much this cultural conditioning can affect one's aptitude towards math. When I used to help my brother with his maths, he would oftentimes complain about not being smart enough. Shortly after, he would give up on the problem and come up with a rudimentary solution just to have an output. On these occasions, I'd prod him to solve the problem, ask him about his approach, probe his mental process, and m…

I think kids see those exercise problems as arbitrary and therefore unmotivated to do them. I dunno if there's any way of making then interesting and or relevant to motivate kids to do em. I suspect curiosity is of paramount importance, and that curiosity is not fostered in school about math.

>I think kids see those exercise problems as arbitrary and therefore unmotivated to do them.

This is exactly how I felt growing up. It wasn't until actually looking at the practical applications of math that I got it. Doing equations for the sake of it without any actual context constantly frustrated me to no end and made me hate math and physics because it made me feel incompetent and stupid, it's been a struggle getting rid of this feeling even to date.

Re: Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014)

#45

Post by roceasta »

chii wrote: post #26
roceasta wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that school math is thought to be 'scary' and 'hard' is not the issue. Plenty of video games are known to be scary and hard. For instance, they contain monsters and are difficult to complete. They even have objective grades (scores). What makes the difference is that video games aren't compulsory. So they represent true play . Which is what makes them educational, unlike a school curriculum, however much it…

There are some aspects of doing math that isn't fun, because it is grinding. Learning the time tables for example - you just have to do lots of exercises to get used to multiplying. No way around that. Just like in sports, where you must also do a lot of basic practise to get good. Making the practise like a game can be done to done degree, but ultimately, a kid is going to see through that after a while, since it ge…

>Learning the time tables for example - you just have to do lots of exercises to get used to multiplying. No way around that.

Learning how to perform mental arithmetic with the aid of pencil and paper was a way to escape from the grind of farm work. One could get a respectable job as a clerk. However with the advent of electronic cash registers and smartphones a way around this later form of grind has also been found. So no need to make it compulsory. Which isn't to say that people don't choose to practice specific things they personally consider useful. Even gamers do that.

Re: Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014)

#46

Post by ehecatl »

erispoe wrote: post #33
pishpash wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They bypass conditioning because they are smarter and are good at it. Who do you think are the people who espouse anti-intellectual drivel like "math is scary" or "math is uncool"? Hint: not the smart people.

There's plenty of research on the "entity theory" bias, mostly applied to gender. I.e. if you tell girls that they're bad at math, on average, they will act as if they are. Unfortunately, framing math as hard or scary only serves to reinforce stereotypes and bar people who do not have the keys to defuse that framing from advancing. It's not the rich male kids who are told math is hard and scary.

Do you now of any research on the potential downsides of the opposite of this? I have a pre-teen son whose confidence with-- and enjoyment in-- maths outstrips his ability (although this might change in either direction). He's not cocky about it; he is more like "Damn. Only got a C. Oh well, next time..."

I can't see him hurting himself with maths, but if he decided he's gonna fix something electrical in a few years time, well that could be very bad indeed.

Re: Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014)

#47

Post by monsieurbanana »

unboxed_type wrote: post #43

Please let Five-Year-Olds play their toys instead of learning calculus, so they can grow up healthy people.

Completely baseless comment.

You can both learn calculus and play with toys.

And if calculus is presented as a fun group activity, like suggested in the article, I don't see why it would hinder the kids growth. It's the other way, really.

Re: Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014)

#48

Post by userbinator »

monsieurbanana wrote: post #47
unboxed_type wrote: post #43

Please let Five-Year-Olds play their toys instead of learning calculus, so they can grow up healthy people.

Completely baseless comment. You can both learn calculus and play with toys. And if calculus is presented as a fun group activity, like suggested in the article, I don't see why it would hinder the kids growth. It's the other way, really.

There's also nothing stopping toys from being calculus-related either, although at the moment I can't think of any examples of such.

Re: Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014)

#49

Post by userbinator »

gremlinsinc wrote: post #3

I'm not even sure.. arithmetic really needs learned as much anymore... as a dev I rarely use my times table... if I need to calculate something I'll pull up a console and go into a repl and just ask php or ruby to calculate it for me... I know HOW the calculation works and why, but I don't need to know and remember times tables. I like the idea of thinking outside the box on how to teach math and science, as I feel m…

if I need to calculate something I'll pull up a console and go into a repl and just ask php or ruby to calculate it for me

I'm guessing you don't spend 100% of your time in front of a computer, and even if you do, in the time it takes you to do that, someone who can actually do mental arithmetic will have approximately calculated that problem and several more, because they can stay in the "flow" of thinking about the bigger problem. As someone who can, it's astounding how many developers out there can't --- pulling out the calculator for computations as simple as 12+51 or 6x128.

It reminds me of the "developers don't need to learn how to type quickly" argument --- yes, you can be productive without, but you'll quickly find yourself to be in a handicap in contrast to others who can write, rewrite, and mentally estimate and compute the results in their head several times faster, saving much time in compiling/running/debugging/etc.

Re: Five-Year-Olds Can Learn Calculus (2014)

#50

Post by jonsen »

userbinator wrote: post #48
monsieurbanana wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely baseless comment. You can both learn calculus and play with toys. And if calculus is presented as a fun group activity, like suggested in the article, I don't see why it would hinder the kids growth. It's the other way, really.

There's also nothing stopping toys from being calculus-related either, although at the moment I can't think of any examples of such.

A toy calculator? :p
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