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Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

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Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#41
I think that it's really interesting that conversations about venture capital and conversations about engineering both get to be lumped into a more general conversation about sexism in Silicon Valley.

A lot of engineers have a good bit to say against the existence of widespread sexism in engineering, myself included. Engineering in computer science has long been represented by a nearly nonexistent barrier to entry outside of one's capabilities and their relevance to the position. Even traditional, and technically very relevant, lateral predictors to output are such as formal education, are largely ignored. Your accomplishments and capabilities interviewing are ultimately what get the hire, with very few exceptions. Anybody who has been in a hiring position can speak to the utilitarian pursuit of the placement; race and sex are the last thing on the mind come hiring time.

All of that being said, however, I don't find it remotely hard to believe that Ellen Pao's recounting of her experience in the world of venture capital is far from the truth. I'm actually relatively certain that she's spared us a good bit of the details. But this isn't engineering, this is finance; quite rarely about the utility of any particular individual in a role, and almost entirely centered around pretty horrible characteristics. Cronyism is the most important characteristic in the club, trading favors, trading connections, looking the other way, getting away with this, getting away with that. The whole thing is a zero sum game, because nobody within is creating any value, you're only ever vying for a piece of the pie baked by the outsiders who actually produce things. As Pao points out, any partner you have largely considers you as a mechanism by which they are to have less investment capital available themselves, and any senior sees you as a way to bubble up the greatest picks for them to skim off the top.

The point is that the business is not about merit, it's about being in the club and playing ball. To deviate from the standards of the club just means you're less of a sure thing when it comes to being a crony, and it doesn't take much to understand why a woman is an outsider in a club like this.

So when we talk about sexism in Silicon Valley, let's please not conflate these two very different businesses. One of them is made up of worker bees, and we don't care what kind of bee you are as long as you're outputting honey. The other one is literally Wall Street pretending like it's anything but.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#42
Reading the comments here I get a feeling not a lot of commenters are reading the entire post (please do), or are reading after already deciding that they won't agree with what they read (if that's the case, please don't bother with the comments and move on to the next HN article)

I thought it was an insightful read as much as I dislike the arrogance that SV seems to possess despite its ignorance of the rest of the world... And the accompanying culture that spills out of that combination of arrogance and ignorance.

SV culture has a lot of problems, sexism is one of them.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#43

>Honestly, I might have considered dating him had he been >less arrogant and less married. Ah, I see. If you are attractive enough, suddenly it is not sexual harassment anymore. I am not going to have a shred of compassion for any woman in tech who complains about harassment, while mentioning the dating opportunities that happen to come.

What an odd criticism to make. She's stating that his arrogance and marital status made him unattractive, as he was coming on to her. A perfectly valid way to feel, no?

Rejecting his advances was fine. What disturbed me is that given different circumstances she would have dated him without second thoughts and suddenly "harassment" becomes a healthy relationship. It means that similar actions would end up in different outcomes. Then where is the line between the harassment and non-harassment?

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#44

Interesting read. I wonder if the "paid army of trolls" she mentions followed her to Reddit. That would definitely explain the campaign against her.

> "paid army of trolls" would definitely explain the campaign against her.

She banned a number of subreddits, including /r/fatpeoplehate and revengeporn. A move that strikes pretty deep at what people consider to be an open platform where votes define everything.

Subsequently she fired Victoria Taylor, an incredibly popular moderator at /r/ama.

This combined with the perceived idea that threads discussing these issues were being banned, caused a huge backlash against her.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#46
post #36

Interesting read. I wonder if the "paid army of trolls" she mentions followed her to Reddit. That would definitely explain the campaign against her.

This xkcd came to my mind when I read that: https://xkcd.com/1019/ It's sobering to think about how easy it must be (for a sufficiently funded organisation) to effectively determine "public discourse" on a large number of topics. Then again, never underestimate just how willing people are (all on their own) to grab their virtual pitchforks without much consideration.

She was CEO during the start of a wave of subreddit bans and the dismissal of a very popular Reddit employee (Victoria). Whatever her actual level of involvement in those decisions, I think it's reasonable to say the pitchforks came out because of them. As the trolls found more real or imagined "dirt" about her, it escalated as many were eager to believe it.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#47

> One day, I was part of a small group flying from San Francisco to New York on the private jet I am sure life is very difficult for women in Sillicon Valley, but could we start talking about other issues? 99.999% people are less privileged.

Honest question here, what does privilege have to do with the conversation that took place in her presence and the questions directed to her during the conversation? Is it okay because she had the privilege of riding in a private jet? I am not sure I am understanding your comment.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What an odd criticism to make. She's stating that his arrogance and marital status made him unattractive, as he was coming on to her. A perfectly valid way to feel, no?

Rejecting his advances was fine. What disturbed me is that given different circumstances she would have dated him without second thoughts and suddenly "harassment" becomes a healthy relationship. It means that similar actions would end up in different outcomes. Then where is the line between the harassment and non-harassment?

Read the article please. Her complaint is about his behavior after she turned him down, and his sexual advances towards another partner.

> ... Ajit had grown increasingly hostile toward me, excluding me from information and meetings

> Back at Kleiner, I continued to have a huge problem with Ajit. Not only was he blocking my work, he had been promoted to a position of even greater responsibility and was giving me negative reviews. I started to lodge formal complaints about him. In response, the firm suggested I transfer to the China office.

> But when I told fellow junior partner... she grew uncharacteristically quiet. Then she said something I never expected: She had been harassed by Ajit, too. He’d asked her out for drinks to talk shop, and in the course of the evening he started touching her with his leg under the table.

> Later that night he came to her room in his bathrobe, asking to be let in. She eventually had to push him out the door.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I will not post any comment in opposite direction, and neither I will keep silent. If society wants to remove sexual harassment from work environment , then both genders need to adjust their behavior, not just men. For women it means zero exceptions allowed for dating at work, even if the guy is attractive. Or going all in and accepting the dating and sexual advances from coworkers, however that would mean forfei…

You're setting up a strawman. No one is trying to prohibit dating at work. What's prohibited is retaliatory actions (or threats of retaliation) when someone is turned down.

That was not my point.

My point is that the issue "I don't want to be sexually harassed at work" becomes "I don't want to be sexually harassed at work by unattractive men", but the parties in question are not willing to articulate it fully.

Re: Ellen Pao: My lawsuit failed. Others won’t

#50
post #41

I think that it's really interesting that conversations about venture capital and conversations about engineering both get to be lumped into a more general conversation about sexism in Silicon Valley. A lot of engineers have a good bit to say against the existence of widespread sexism in engineering, myself included. Engineering in computer science has long been represented by a nearly nonexistent barrier to entry ou…

I don't find it remotely hard to believe that Ellen Pao's recounting of her experience in the world of venture capital is far from the truth

Can you clarify this? I'm confused because it seems at odds with the rest of your post.

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