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The Loyal Engineers Steering NASA’s Voyager Probes Across the Universe

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Re: The Loyal Engineers Steering NASA’s Voyager Probes Across the Universe

#41

Post by gaius »

Nimitz14 wrote: post #40
bitexploder wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good insight. Having read about NASA's culture some from books like "An Astronaut's Guide to Life on Earth", they tend to be very dedicated to documenting everything. Every last little detail goes into handbooks or manuals about how they fixed problems or things that could have gotten someone killed, adapting procedures to take into account even the smallest of practical details. These engineers come from a…

Everything you described is just standard engineering practice. I've always found it funny how software developers call themselves "engineers" while working nothing like them.

Everything you described is just standard engineering practice. I've always found it funny how software developers call themselves "engineers" while working nothing like them.

So true. But when you have a culture and an industry where 2 years ia a long tenure at a company and a long lifecycle for the latest faddish "framework" or whatever, it's impossible. I'd love to stay somewhere 10+ years and work on a single significant application the whole time. But it seems to be impossible to find such a gig. Experience is generally undervalued throughout our entire industry.

Re: The Loyal Engineers Steering NASA’s Voyager Probes Across the Universe

#42

Post by ShabbosGoy »

Nimitz14 wrote: post #40
bitexploder wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good insight. Having read about NASA's culture some from books like "An Astronaut's Guide to Life on Earth", they tend to be very dedicated to documenting everything. Every last little detail goes into handbooks or manuals about how they fixed problems or things that could have gotten someone killed, adapting procedures to take into account even the smallest of practical details. These engineers come from a…

Everything you described is just standard engineering practice. I've always found it funny how software developers call themselves "engineers" while working nothing like them.

It would be standard practice in a waterfall development methodology which big corporations still use to this day.

Re: The Loyal Engineers Steering NASA’s Voyager Probes Across the Universe

#43

Post by Merad »

dingo_bat wrote: post #19

How do you retain such talented people for such a long time? These people could get jobs in the most cutting-edge company in their respective fields. Still they choose to stay at the same place for decades.

It's a combination of things. Many (most?) of the people want to be there and are passionate about what they're doing. Financially it's still a great job by normal standards and once you have tenure (I think they may call it something else) it's an extremely secure job.

I have a friend who works there - brilliant guy who went to school for physics but is also very talented at low level embedded systems type development. When he graduated with a physics masters he turned down a six figure offer to start at NASA at around $60k. From what he's told me though, he's essentially guaranteed to hit the six figure mark within 6-8 years. Last time we spoke he had just started his PhD (paid by NASA) and was working on the Mars 2020 rover.

Re: The Loyal Engineers Steering NASA’s Voyager Probes Across the Universe

#44

Post by fsloth »

gaius wrote: post #41
Nimitz14 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you described is just standard engineering practice. I've always found it funny how software developers call themselves "engineers" while working nothing like them.

Everything you described is just standard engineering practice. I've always found it funny how software developers call themselves "engineers" while working nothing like them. So true. But when you have a culture and an industry where 2 years ia a long tenure at a company and a long lifecycle for the latest faddish "framework" or whatever, it's impossible. I'd love to stay somewhere 10+ years and work on a single sig…

"I'd love to stay somewhere 10+ years and work on a single significant application the whole time. "

Try CAD. The industry is full of crusty applications pushing 30 years. I'm sure some of the careers are equally long.

Re: The Loyal Engineers Steering NASA’s Voyager Probes Across the Universe

#45

Post by nlh »

One thing I've always been amazed at when reading about spacecraft is the incredibly detailed level of control the scientists have over the craft.

It's something I'm not used to here on earth -- when something breaks, I've learned you either crack it open and replace the part or buy a new device :)

Can someone talk (or provide a link) about how this sort of system design works?

Re: The Loyal Engineers Steering NASA’s Voyager Probes Across the Universe

#46

Post by WalterBright »

gaius wrote: post #41
Nimitz14 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you described is just standard engineering practice. I've always found it funny how software developers call themselves "engineers" while working nothing like them.

Everything you described is just standard engineering practice. I've always found it funny how software developers call themselves "engineers" while working nothing like them. So true. But when you have a culture and an industry where 2 years ia a long tenure at a company and a long lifecycle for the latest faddish "framework" or whatever, it's impossible. I'd love to stay somewhere 10+ years and work on a single sig…

You can do that at any time. Start a project and work on it forever. I'm still working on a compiler I started in 1982.

Re: The Loyal Engineers Steering NASA’s Voyager Probes Across the Universe

#47

Post by nonbel »

1_2__4 wrote: post #30
rebootthesystem wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, above all, you value experience. Seriously, the degree to which age discrimination is an accepted reality in tech today is a great failing, and one that has enormous hidden costs over time. Sadly I know a number of extremely talented older engineers who have been discarded like trash only to be constantly rejected in their search for new employment, until some of them just give up. It's remarkably ignorant and…

It's not short sighted. Most upper management in those sorts of companies isn't there for any kind of a long haul. They win if they can impress the VCs with what they shipped in the last few months, doesn't matter if none of it works, services are crashing and customers are unhappy. Imagine if organizations like NASA only recognized accomplishments like "added a button to such-and-such dashboard." It's laziness mixed…

>"And if you're not hitting your targets, why, move the target! Imagine how much easier NASA's job would be if they could say the moon shot was a success even though they only got something into orbit because we redefined what a moon shot was."

This is the way in biomed:

>'When scientists finished the first draft of the human genome, in 2001, and again when they had the final version in 2003, no one lied, exactly. FAQs from the National Institutes of Health refer to the sequence’s “essential completion,” and to the question, “Is the human genome completely sequenced?” they answer, “Yes,” with the caveat — that it’s “as complete as it can be” given available technology.'

https://www.statnews.com/2017/06/20/human-genome-not-fully-s...

Re: The Loyal Engineers Steering NASA’s Voyager Probes Across the Universe

#48

Post by user5994461 »

laydn wrote: post #4

You know, getting these electronics systems ready, sending out to deep space and communicating with these systems is an incredible feat. But, for me, another amazing thing about these long term projects is the sheer amount of knowledge that needs to be maintained and passed on to new people, over the course of several decades. To pull it off, this need of knowledge management and transfer must be so deeply engraved i…

>>> How do they do it in this day and age of "FAQs", "Forums" and "Helpdesks"? :)

The secret: Employee retention.

Everything is easier when the knowledge stays in the company.

Re: The Loyal Engineers Steering NASA’s Voyager Probes Across the Universe

#49

Post by user5994461 »

dingo_bat wrote: post #19

How do you retain such talented people for such a long time? These people could get jobs in the most cutting-edge company in their respective fields. Still they choose to stay at the same place for decades.

And get laid off one year later when the cutting edge is obsoleted.

No thanks.

Re: The Loyal Engineers Steering NASA’s Voyager Probes Across the Universe

#50

Post by user5994461 »

Merad wrote: post #43
dingo_bat wrote: post #19

How do you retain such talented people for such a long time? These people could get jobs in the most cutting-edge company in their respective fields. Still they choose to stay at the same place for decades.

It's a combination of things. Many (most?) of the people want to be there and are passionate about what they're doing. Financially it's still a great job by normal standards and once you have tenure (I think they may call it something else) it's an extremely secure job. I have a friend who works there - brilliant guy who went to school for physics but is also very talented at low level embedded systems type developme…

It's also a matter of location.

6 figures in SF/NYC can be less than 60k somewhere else.

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