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The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years

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Re: The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years

#41

Post by MichaelSalib »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #33
scotty79 wrote: post #27

> Now in the end, we might look at Onoda as a fool and worse, a murder of innocent people. In the end, he was both of those things, there is no denying it. Funny thing is that at war time being idiot murderer of innocent people is just fine. I think there should be much more footage from war zones. Maybe then people would stop looking at war as sane and sometimes appropriate option.

Worse option: letting the other guy go to war, and you don't. Its called surrender and can be worse.

This is not always true. Almost all wars are started for "defensive" reasons and oftentimes those reasons are just lies told to drum up support for the war.

The Nazi regime convinced ordinary people that they had to fight against an internal Jewish threat. That was a lie. If ordinary Germans had let "the other guy" go to war, nothing would have happened because there was no internal threat. Likewise, if Americans had ignored the terrible threat that Iraq posed to the US in 2003, then nothing would have happened: Iraq wasn't a threat to the US. Claims that it was trying to do destroy the US or had the capability to do so were lies. Ignoring the lies is not surrender.

The first rule of honorable war fighting is to figure out which justifications are true and which are lies. A people that can't or won't do that can never be honorable since sooner or later, they'll end up exterminating lots of innocent people in a war based on lies.

Re: The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years

#42

Post by avar »

patrickk wrote: post #35
lionhearted wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah man, this was such a great and insightful and correct comment until this part - > ...which contrasts with the slightly more laisse-faire economic approach in the US. Nah, the USA hasn't been laissez-faire in money for a long time. Interest rates artificially low, lending based on political regulations, high ranking employees of major banks moving back and forth between government posts and high paying jobs at the…

Well thanks for the compliment all the same! I'm not an economist, but I do have a keen interest in history, particularly WWII. Here's a link if you would like to read more about the Tiger: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_I#Combat_examples " Nah, the USA hasn't been laissez-faire in money for a long time. " - I only meant more laisse faire in comparison to Europe, and in a historical sense. I should've been more s…

If that policy's really derived from WWII I daresy they've completely missed the point. The Data Protection Directive wouldn't help if you Europe were to fall under Nazi control again.

It's just a law that says the government can't process the data in certain ways, they still have the data though, and could start mining it by changing the law, or ignoring it.

If they actually cared they wouldn't be gathering this data in the first place. The U.S. (officially) keeps a lot less data on its citizens than the average European country, but that's been changing in the recent decades since the FBI, NSA and others were founded.

Re: The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years

#43

Post by protomyth »

lionhearted wrote: post #9
robryan wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With soldiers this dedicated to the cause though you have to think had there been no atomic bombs the world may have been a very different place.

Yes, but maybe in a different way than you'd think. There was a divide in Imperial Japanese politics - the Emperor wanted to end the war and was looking to surrender pre-Hiroshima. The heads of the military were split on a course of action - some wanted to fight to the end, but a more common position was trying to fight enough to get more favorable terms than just unconditional surrender. It's common enough to fight…

Your missing the effects of Russia turning towards the east. The US was a little worried about further expansion past the disputed islands. Plus, the Army did want to invade and the Navy thought a blockade with constant bombing was the way to go.

Re: The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years

#44

Post by protomyth »

lionhearted wrote: post #25
michaelkeenan wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The United States never wanted to land invade Japan - the second option to bombings was a blockade to starve the army out. I don't think that's correct. I've read that the alternative to the bombs was a huge invasion called Operation Downfall. According to Wikipedia: "The U.S. Navy urged the use of blockade and airpower to bring about Japan's capitulation...The U.S. Army, on the other hand, argued that such a strat…

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall#Consideratio... . Fascinating, thanks for sharing that. I hadn't seen it before. It doesn't surprise me that different military branches had different proposed plans - that's common. I wonder how much sway the Army had at that point? I'm pretty sure the Navy generally had more authority in Pacific operations since so much of the fighting was naval-based. Also, a lot o…

If the initial post war policy thinking is an indication (see Admiral's Rebellion), then the Army (w/Air Force) probably held sway.

Re: The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years

#45

Post by TallGuyShort »

Ignoring his actions for a moment, I really admire his quotes about children needing to be raised to be more independent (which can be seen at the bottom of the article). I'm a big believer that most of the world's problems today, are caused because someone, somewhere, didn't take responsibility for themselves, and I think he hit the root cause of that on the head. Interesting to hear the opinion of someone who basically skipped 30 years of society's gradual change.

Re: The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years

#46

Post by forinti »

hooande wrote: post #20
robryan wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With soldiers this dedicated to the cause though you have to think had there been no atomic bombs the world may have been a very different place.

The atomic bombs were devastating and impressive, but they didn't do much more actual damage than the B-29 fire bomb raids on Tokyo in terms of loss of life and property. When you can drop bombs at all, it doesn't really matter what kind of bombs they are. The atomic bombs were an excellent PR move of sorts, as a tool to convince the japanese to give up more than as a weapon of war.

I think that dropping incendiary bombs on cities made mostly of wood and paper is even worse than dropping an atom bomb. And it wasn't just Tokyo; dozens of japanese cities were burned to the ground.

Re: The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years

#47

Post by eru »

lionhearted wrote: post #32
patrickk wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Americans also showed the Japanese how to build cars and motorbikes, and now Toyota is the biggest car manufacturer in the world, and Japanese manufacturers are leading innovators in automobile manufacturing. The Japanese focus was small, incremental improvements over time, whereas for decades the Western attitude was 'big-bang' progress, i.e. trying to do a lot of innovation all at once. James Dyson speaks a lot…

Ah man, this was such a great and insightful and correct comment until this part - > ...which contrasts with the slightly more laisse-faire economic approach in the US. Nah, the USA hasn't been laissez-faire in money for a long time. Interest rates artificially low, lending based on political regulations, high ranking employees of major banks moving back and forth between government posts and high paying jobs at the…

> Europe had the Marshall Plan go into effect, Japan had very little reconstruction money.

Please have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan#Expenditures

Germany received less than half what the UK received from the Marshall Plan [1], and of course still had to pay reparations and some plans to dismantle German industry were also carried out.

Also from the same page: "Former U.S. Chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank Alan Greenspan gives most credit to Ludwig Erhard for Europe's economic recovery. Greenspan writes in his memoir The Age of Turbulence that Erhard's economic policies were the most important aspect of postwar Western Europe recovery, far outweighing the contributions of the Marshall Plan. He states that it was Erhard's reductions in economic regulations that permitted Germany's miraculous recovery, and that these policies also contributed to the recoveries of many other European countries. Japan's recovery is also used as a counter-example, since it experienced rapid growth without any aid whatsoever. Its recovery is attributed to traditional economic stimuli, such as increases in investment, fueled by a high savings rate and low taxes. Japan saw a large infusion of US investment during the Korean war."

Ludwig Erhard is still known and popular today.

[1] And we know how badly UK industry up until Iron Lady.

Re: The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years

#48

Post by Tichy »

TallGuyShort wrote: post #45

Ignoring his actions for a moment, I really admire his quotes about children needing to be raised to be more independent (which can be seen at the bottom of the article). I'm a big believer that most of the world's problems today, are caused because someone, somewhere, didn't take responsibility for themselves, and I think he hit the root cause of that on the head. Interesting to hear the opinion of someone who basic…

Being independent doesn't imply living a sustainable lifestyle.

Re: The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years

#49

Post by Tichy »

varjag wrote: post #23
coryl wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't just blind conviction though, he was a professional soldier. It was war time, and his commanding officer sent him in to conduct guerrilla warfare in the jungles. He was expected to be there for a long time and operationally independent. "You are absolutely forbidden to die by your own hand. It may take three years, it may take five, but whatever happens, we’ll come back for you. Until then, so long as you h…

There's no mention he was professional though. EDIT: "When he was 20 years old, he was called to join the Japanese army." He was in fact a conscript.

And he had never even seen Rambo I and II...

Re: The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years

#50

Post by roqetman »

MichaelSalib wrote: post #40
miked wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as Japan is concerned, the theories about how they would have fought for every house, etc. are false. One of the most astonishing facts about the Pacific War was how few Japanese soldiers ever surrendered to the Allies (before the war officially ended). The Japanese sense of honor demanded that they fight till the end and never surrender. I no longer have the exact number, but IIRC, the total number of captive…

The US expected to take up to one million casualties. I'm not sure this was true. The US might have expected to take such large numbers of casualties IF they insisted on invading very quickly for purely political reasons. But given a bit more time, there need not be so many casualties at all. Japan was literally starving. Everyone was on severely reduced food rations, including soldiers. Within a year or so, no one w…

But don't forget that America was having a hard time funding the war at that point. They had to end it quickly or they would have run out of money and given Japan time to rebuild their war machine.
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