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The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years

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Re: The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years

#31

Post by gaius »

miked wrote: post #28
hristov wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Had there been no atomic bombs the world may have been a very different place." That is true, but for reasons that have nothing to do with Japan. As far as Japan is concerned, the theories about how they would have fought for every house, etc. are false. The Japanese were trying to negotiate a surrender even before the first atomic bomb fell.

As far as Japan is concerned, the theories about how they would have fought for every house, etc. are false. One of the most astonishing facts about the Pacific War was how few Japanese soldiers ever surrendered to the Allies (before the war officially ended). The Japanese sense of honor demanded that they fight till the end and never surrender. I no longer have the exact number, but IIRC, the total number of captive…

As Neal Stephenson says in Cryptonomicon, the only Japanese soldiers who understood that banzai charges didn't work had already been killed in banzai charges.

Re: The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years

#32

Post by lionhearted »

patrickk wrote: post #24
lionhearted wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but maybe in a different way than you'd think. There was a divide in Imperial Japanese politics - the Emperor wanted to end the war and was looking to surrender pre-Hiroshima. The heads of the military were split on a course of action - some wanted to fight to the end, but a more common position was trying to fight enough to get more favorable terms than just unconditional surrender. It's common enough to fight…

The Americans also showed the Japanese how to build cars and motorbikes, and now Toyota is the biggest car manufacturer in the world, and Japanese manufacturers are leading innovators in automobile manufacturing. The Japanese focus was small, incremental improvements over time, whereas for decades the Western attitude was 'big-bang' progress, i.e. trying to do a lot of innovation all at once. James Dyson speaks a lot…

Ah man, this was such a great and insightful and correct comment until this part -

> ...which contrasts with the slightly more laisse-faire economic approach in the US.

Nah, the USA hasn't been laissez-faire in money for a long time. Interest rates artificially low, lending based on political regulations, high ranking employees of major banks moving back and forth between government posts and high paying jobs at the major banks... nah, American currency/banks/Federal Reserve are incredibly government-managed and corrupt. Fiat currency + legal tender laws + direct election of Senate leading to short term thinking + deficit spending is legal and tolerated... well, that winds up somewhere, but it doesn't wind up laissez-faire.

Rest of the comment is good - what's interesting to me is that Japan got very little reconstruction money. Europe had the Marshall Plan go into effect, Japan had very little reconstruction money. It's a testament to the will and work ethic of the Japanese people how fast they rebuilt the economy and started prospering.

That said, I'm 100% with the rest of your comment aside from the idea that the American money/currency is run hands-off, very good comment. For anyone more curious, googling any of the terms in your comment would bring back some interesting results. I always thought it was fascinating that Germans were terrified of inflation and Americans were terrified of deflation, largely because of historical experiences in the years between WWI and WWII.

Re: The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years

#33

Post by JoeAltmaier »

scotty79 wrote: post #27

> Now in the end, we might look at Onoda as a fool and worse, a murder of innocent people. In the end, he was both of those things, there is no denying it. Funny thing is that at war time being idiot murderer of innocent people is just fine. I think there should be much more footage from war zones. Maybe then people would stop looking at war as sane and sometimes appropriate option.

Worse option: letting the other guy go to war, and you don't. Its called surrender and can be worse.

Re: The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years

#35

Post by patrickk »

lionhearted wrote: post #32
patrickk wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Americans also showed the Japanese how to build cars and motorbikes, and now Toyota is the biggest car manufacturer in the world, and Japanese manufacturers are leading innovators in automobile manufacturing. The Japanese focus was small, incremental improvements over time, whereas for decades the Western attitude was 'big-bang' progress, i.e. trying to do a lot of innovation all at once. James Dyson speaks a lot…

Ah man, this was such a great and insightful and correct comment until this part - > ...which contrasts with the slightly more laisse-faire economic approach in the US. Nah, the USA hasn't been laissez-faire in money for a long time. Interest rates artificially low, lending based on political regulations, high ranking employees of major banks moving back and forth between government posts and high paying jobs at the…

Well thanks for the compliment all the same! I'm not an economist, but I do have a keen interest in history, particularly WWII.

Here's a link if you would like to read more about the Tiger: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_I#Combat_examples

"Nah, the USA hasn't been laissez-faire in money for a long time. " - I only meant more laisse faire in comparison to Europe, and in a historical sense. I should've been more specific. Note I said slightly more laissez-faire ;-) It's moving further and further in the opposite direction now of course, with the crash of 2008 and ensuring economic upheaval, Obama administration's economic approach vs, Bushs' , Greenspan gone, TARP, bank bailouts etc.

Another interesting European policy decision arising out of the ashes of WWII is the European attitude to privacy of the individual, which is quite different to the American model. The European Data Protection Directive is interesting, in that specific protections are laid in place, versus the American approach which "relies on a combination of legislation, regulation, and self-regulation, rather than overarching governmental regulations" - Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Protection_Directive

It goes onto explain that because individual's personal information was used by Nazi Germany to put people on cattle cars and ship them to concentration camps, Europe was always going to be more concerned about personal privacy than America, which had never gone through such a horrific experience. How could they possibly understand such an attitude, having never lived through the Holocaust? Fascinating stuff, in my opinion.

Re: The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years

#36

Post by NickPollard »

hristov wrote: post #18
weego wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed so, but I read they were considering surrendering to the Russians, which is something the US really didn't want.

I don't know where you read that but it makes no sense. The Russians could not have taken Japan if they wanted to, they had to go through the US navy to do that. The Soviet Navy at the time was not much to speak of and it also happened to be on the other side of the earth. A big chunk of the Japanese army surrendered to the Russians (as they were stuck in China), and also, if I remember correctly, the Japanese tried…

Although Russia definitely did want Japan's conquered territory in China and the rest of mainland Asia - the main lasting effect of the Atomic Bombs on the geo-political outcomes of the war was giving the Americans the ability to force the surrender before Russia began its invasion of Manchuria.

This is why the Japanese attempts to negotiate a measured surrender through the Soviets were ultimately futile - it was actually in Stalin's interests to not pass on the Japanese proposals to the US, as an early peace deal would kill his opportunity to land grab in Asia.

Re: The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years

#37

Post by wanderingknight »

robryan wrote: post #6
seldo wrote: post #2

I love this story. I remember reading a very abridged version of it in one of my Super Fact Books when I was 8 or 9 (it omitted the fact that he murdered dozens of people, for instance). Still, he's an amazing (if very, very dumb) character.

With soldiers this dedicated to the cause though you have to think had there been no atomic bombs the world may have been a very different place.

You have to think what would have happened if Japan went on with their negotiations with Soviet Russia.

You know, the ones the US tried so hard to stop with those bombs.

Re: The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years

#38

Post by wanderingknight »

hristov wrote: post #18
weego wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed so, but I read they were considering surrendering to the Russians, which is something the US really didn't want.

I don't know where you read that but it makes no sense. The Russians could not have taken Japan if they wanted to, they had to go through the US navy to do that. The Soviet Navy at the time was not much to speak of and it also happened to be on the other side of the earth. A big chunk of the Japanese army surrendered to the Russians (as they were stuck in China), and also, if I remember correctly, the Japanese tried…

They were actively engaged in negotiations with Russia before the US dropped the bombs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan#Attempts_to_...

Re: The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years

#39

Post by kaptainlange »

FooBarWidget wrote: post #21
seldo wrote: post #2

I love this story. I remember reading a very abridged version of it in one of my Super Fact Books when I was 8 or 9 (it omitted the fact that he murdered dozens of people, for instance). Still, he's an amazing (if very, very dumb) character.

I don't know why you call him dumb. In his situation there are few ways to verify that Japan had indeed surrendered. If it really was an elaborate scheme by the Allied troops then he would have been called dumb for surrendering so easily.

His belief that the Allies would go through so much trouble to stop a group of people who had killed relatively few people over a 30 year period is what makes him dumb.

What troop movements was he observing? What logistics was he disrupting? How effective could he possibly be gathering intelligence if he couldn't even report his findings to his superiors? Even if the war was still going, his contribution to the war effort was minimal compared to the effort the Allies appeared to be putting forth to "capture" him.

Re: The Japanese Soldier Who Fought WWII for 30 Years

#40

Post by MichaelSalib »

miked wrote: post #28
hristov wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Had there been no atomic bombs the world may have been a very different place." That is true, but for reasons that have nothing to do with Japan. As far as Japan is concerned, the theories about how they would have fought for every house, etc. are false. The Japanese were trying to negotiate a surrender even before the first atomic bomb fell.

As far as Japan is concerned, the theories about how they would have fought for every house, etc. are false. One of the most astonishing facts about the Pacific War was how few Japanese soldiers ever surrendered to the Allies (before the war officially ended). The Japanese sense of honor demanded that they fight till the end and never surrender. I no longer have the exact number, but IIRC, the total number of captive…

The US expected to take up to one million casualties.

I'm not sure this was true. The US might have expected to take such large numbers of casualties IF they insisted on invading very quickly for purely political reasons. But given a bit more time, there need not be so many casualties at all. Japan was literally starving. Everyone was on severely reduced food rations, including soldiers. Within a year or so, no one would have the strength to resist invasion anyway. In addition, the blockade destroyed Japan's ability to produce armaments, so the only way to resist invasion would have been wooden spears and hand to hand combat.

A man who's subsisted on 800 calories a day for the past 2 months won't put up much of a fight. Wait a few months more and he'll be dead, at which point he really won't put up much of a fight.

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