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Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

nytimes.com

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Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#41

Post by caretoomuch »

As someone lived in Hong Kong for quite a while (during the tail of its heydays) but now in the US, Hong Kong is indeed in big trouble. But not for the reasons mentioned/implied in this article.

It's very easy to buy into narratives such as authoritarianism vs democracy, communism vs capitalism, China vs Britain/West, tight control vs freedom as the reasons for Hong Kong's decline, but that's just short-circuited thinking for the lazy.

The real reason for Hong Kong's decline, is the failure/irresponsibility of Hong Kong's elite ruling class. Maybe to many people's surprise, since its handover to China, Hong Kong has effectively been ruled by the local elites, NOT by Beijing. Sure, Beijing appoints the governor, but the governors are locals, and there was never any direct "order" from Beijing, well, sorta until recently, when Beijing began to see the failure of the local Hong Kong government.

Those elites are composed of mega real estate/business tycoons. Being the elites in the most capitalist city-state in the world gives them tremendous wealth and power, but to the disappointment of Spider-man, with that great power there's no great responsibilities. The ruling class mega riches don't see income inequality as a problem, but a badge of honor for themselves, to show how "they've made it", while all the poors are just not smart/hardworking enough. Any efforts to "appease the poor" are hindered by the ruling business-politician symbiotics, because those efforts get in their way of accumulating more wealth.

The frustration of the youth and the poor stems from the sense of inequality, unfairness and despair as they see no chances of upward mobility. Yet, even the poorest in Hong Kong is a capitalist at heart, so they are poor not because of the rich, and they certainly do work hard, then who's to blame? China, Beijing, the mainlanders, because they are evil, communist, denying tian'anmen square, yada yada...

On the contrary, when the ruling rich saw the rebellion of lower class, without knowing/admitting themselves are to be blamed, they seek help from Beijing. What does Beijing know about governing a country? More control! That's the only thing Beijing knows, and it's been working (kinda) with them. So that's how we get where we are now.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#42

Post by Chathamization »

tuna-piano wrote: post #9
platinumrad wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What is the difference between Hong Kong/China relationship and the often criticized West Bank/Israel relationship? ????? Hong Kong is wealthy, developed, and cosmopolitan and the West Bank/Gaza are not?? Israel and Palestine share the same landmass and China and Britain do not?? Israel is the most powerful nation in the Middle East and Britian is not the most powerful nation in East Asia--in fact it's a nation in W…

I was trying to compare the political situation, not quality of life, which as you mention is vastly different. My comparison is more that: -China controls Hong Kong with only limited local say in the government. Israel also controls the West Bank, with limited Palestinian Authority control of certain matters. -Hong Kong can't have a military or conduct foreign affairs and isn't internationally recognized (same as We…

I'd say that the biggest difference in terms of the political situation is that the people in Hong Kong are Chinese, and Hong Kong is part of China. Palestinians aren't Israeli (and Israel even talks about population transfers to remove Arab citizens), and Palestine isn't considered part of Israel (Israel's stance seems to be "we control this land and maybe some of it is part of Israel but maybe part of it isn't"). When you add to that things like the military conflict, blockades, settlements, etc., you can see that the situation is vastly different.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#43

Post by justicezyx »

princetontiger wrote: post #35

I love both these comments. China doesn't have private ownership. it's still communist, right?

If "no private ownership" = communism, then correct, China is communism country.

But as defined in the textbook, communism also requires highly-developed society, where citizens not work for their living, but for their aspiration, and the society provides the consumables for people's living. And many other necessary conditions to be called communism.

Even for private ownership. If I bought a house in US, do I have an ownership? Then why I have to pay property tax and have a risk of been evicted if not do so.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#44

Post by and0 »

princetontiger wrote: post #33

Britain is the genesis of freedom. Go read the Magna Carta. Other Western European countries also spread fantastic ideals. Non-Western countries have ZERO freedoms, and people are crawling over themselves to move to the West. DESPITE, these "colonial powers" leaving 40-50 years ago, those populations want to move to Europe, the US, Australia/NZ, and Canada.

No:

- Britain's own level of freedom doesn't reflect how they've treated colonies in the past. See: all of history.

- The UK isn't as free as many other Western nations. See: their track record on surveillance (although everyone is catching up there), or even Theresa May literally saying "I’ll rip up human rights laws that impede new terror legislation" quite recently.

- Founding documents rarely mean anything when it comes to actual law. See: The US Constitution vs NSA and pretty much everything else the government does.

- Non-Western countries have plenty of freedoms? I'd argue freedom has more to do with economic prosperity, which is typically dominated by colonial powers. See: Japan, Iran before US overthrew government (Iran is now lowest in Economic Freedom Index).

Between this unhinged post and your previous comment "China doesn't represent Anglo Saxon culture or ideals. Canada, NZ, Australia, the UK and the US are the reason we have freedom of everything." I'm getting some really weird vibes, man. You sound delusional and racist.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#45

Post by princetontiger »

and0 wrote: post #44
princetontiger wrote: post #33

Britain is the genesis of freedom. Go read the Magna Carta. Other Western European countries also spread fantastic ideals. Non-Western countries have ZERO freedoms, and people are crawling over themselves to move to the West. DESPITE, these "colonial powers" leaving 40-50 years ago, those populations want to move to Europe, the US, Australia/NZ, and Canada.

No: - Britain's own level of freedom doesn't reflect how they've treated colonies in the past. See: all of history. - The UK isn't as free as many other Western nations. See: their track record on surveillance (although everyone is catching up there), or even Theresa May literally saying "I’ll rip up human rights laws that impede new terror legislation" quite recently. - Founding documents rarely mean anything when i…

Dude.... We (the West) wrote the Japanese and Korean constitution. Read a book. Without US soldiers in those countries, they wouldn't be where they are today.

US = Japan Germany's Weimer constitution formed the basis for Korea's

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#46

Post by justicezyx »

throwawayasdf wrote: post #8
tuna-piano wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't seem to find any studies on Chines-American or Chinese-in-the-US views on the Chinese government, but my anecdotal experiences are different than yours. I find a more typical view of, "It's a difficult situation, and there's not much we can do about it" and not "The Communist party is the best and democracy is terrible". And on the spectrum of Complete Communism->Complete Capitalism (no country is completely…

Dude, they love their government with extreme pride. You're probably talking to them as an obvious American, and they are backing down and downplaying it to hide it, because they know it's your home turf and they'd rather not get in a fight with a 'Murica-dude over it. Try talking to them as another asian or foreigner. You will see their nationalism come out. If you don't believe me, ask your non-American non-Chinese…

> You're probably talking to them as an obvious American, and they are backing down and downplaying it to hide it

Not sure how do you get that. I suppose you do not have the super power to read mind.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#47

Post by pjc50 »

nailer wrote: post #27

There's a lot to be gloomy about but HK is also really inspirational. At a time when a lot of young people in the west are railing against democracy, free speech, and other laws that support their freedom, HK has 20 year olds pushing China to deliver the democracy they promised before 1997.

> a lot of young people in the west are railing against democracy, free speech, and other laws that support their freedom

[citation needed]

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#49

Post by scarmig »

princetontiger wrote: post #33

Britain is the genesis of freedom. Go read the Magna Carta. Other Western European countries also spread fantastic ideals. Non-Western countries have ZERO freedoms, and people are crawling over themselves to move to the West. DESPITE, these "colonial powers" leaving 40-50 years ago, those populations want to move to Europe, the US, Australia/NZ, and Canada.

The idea that the modal experience of residents of Magna Carta-era England (that was long before "Britain" could be said to correspond to any political entity) was anything approaching "freedom" is laughable. Peasants were peasants everywhere, and the main determinant of their well being and freedom was whether there was a natural disaster recently and, to a lesser extent, technological development.

Hunter gatherers and nomadic societies were more free. Probably the Highlanders of Scotland experienced a lot more "freedom" than anyone governed by the Magna Carta. Though that ended with the British government's campaigns to subjugate the region in the wake of the Jacobite rebellion.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#50

Post by sho »

throwawayasdf wrote: post #8
tuna-piano wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't seem to find any studies on Chines-American or Chinese-in-the-US views on the Chinese government, but my anecdotal experiences are different than yours. I find a more typical view of, "It's a difficult situation, and there's not much we can do about it" and not "The Communist party is the best and democracy is terrible". And on the spectrum of Complete Communism->Complete Capitalism (no country is completely…

Dude, they love their government with extreme pride. You're probably talking to them as an obvious American, and they are backing down and downplaying it to hide it, because they know it's your home turf and they'd rather not get in a fight with a 'Murica-dude over it. Try talking to them as another asian or foreigner. You will see their nationalism come out. If you don't believe me, ask your non-American non-Chinese…

> Dude, they love their government with extreme pride

I'm going to present as much evidence as you have - none - but in my experience this is categorically and absurdly untrue. And your claim that others don't see this because they're "obvious American" is the opposite of reality. The only times I have seen Chinese express "love" for their government is when it's criticised by a foreigner. Between themselves they complain non stop. The best the CCP can hope for from the vast majority of its populace is, as far as I can see, a kind of grudging respect.

You really need to learn the difference between extreme pride in your country and in your government, because they are two very different things. Plenty of peoples have the former - including the Chinese and indeed Americans. I struggle to think of any large population of the latter and they certainly do not live in China.

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