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The Unix-Haters Handbook (1994) [pdf]

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Re: The Unix-Haters Handbook (1994) [pdf]

#41

I like to cover myself with some crazy question and think about them. For example, what would look like the thing that would make people go "oh this looks good enough to replace UNIX". Don't get me wrong, I am big fan of UNIX, but I hope I will be alive around the time(but I doubt that) when we will see some new thing which will make UNIX feel dated. Now, some of you might jump and say "Oh, but UNIX already feels dat…

I just hope that whatever replaces *NIX is still free software. Your computer OS is the last thing that should be controlled by corporate gatekeepers.

Re: The Unix-Haters Handbook (1994) [pdf]

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They all are, but this book dates from a time when Unix had nothing like the absolute dominance of paradigm it does now. True, by the early-mid 90s, the Unix model had effectively won - but there remained a very large number of people with fond memories of other platforms, many of which did at least some things better than any contemporary or even modern Unix.

>there remained a very large number of people with fond memories of other platforms, many of which did at least some things better than any contemporary or even modern Unix. Yeah, that's what I'm curious about. Could you name names? :)

Lisp machines turn up pretty frequently in this context, and I understand why - some of their capabilities still haven't been replicated anywhere else, nor are they likely to be, and that's a real loss; in particular, there is a great deal to be said for a model in which changing the behavior of the running system, right down to the microcode, can be as simple as writing up the changes you want and evaluating them. No compile step, no restart, no nothing - you just point at something and say "do this instead from now on". If you like it, save it and hang it off the boot process; if you don't, reverting the change is as easy as evaluating what you replaced; if you discover you've broken the running environment, you can usually fix it without a reboot, and in extremis a (fast!) reboot cures all such ills.

About as close as you can get and stay relevant to the modern world is Emacs, which, while a lot of fun, I gather from those with real Lisp-M experience isn't really all that close. And it says something, I think, that the next former Lisp-M user I meet who has a bad word to say about that platform will be the first one.

In general, the book does these systems more justice than I can, and it's a fun read in general. I recommend it quite highly - in those areas it covers where I have experience of my own, I found little with which to disagree and much with which to laugh.

Re: The Unix-Haters Handbook (1994) [pdf]

#43

I like to cover myself with some crazy question and think about them. For example, what would look like the thing that would make people go "oh this looks good enough to replace UNIX". Don't get me wrong, I am big fan of UNIX, but I hope I will be alive around the time(but I doubt that) when we will see some new thing which will make UNIX feel dated. Now, some of you might jump and say "Oh, but UNIX already feels dat…

I just hope that whatever replaces *NIX is still free software. Your computer OS is the last thing that should be controlled by corporate gatekeepers.

That's not even a question.

Re: The Unix-Haters Handbook (1994) [pdf]

#44
post #5

can anyone give a first-hand historical perspective on this, regarding what was going on and how this was seen in 1994?

It was written in an age where there were still plenty of computer options to go around with.

On the consumer and small business end, there were DOS/Windows boxes, WindowsNT boxes, and Macs, of course. But OS/2 was still a thing, Win95 was around the corner, and, while on the decline by 1994, Atari and Amiga devices were still somewhat sensible options for e.g. music or gaming a few years earlier.

On the corporate end, and more saliently for this specific book, you still had plenty of mainframes and such around, and an equally rich variety of options. Some of these computers were called Lisp machines, and built around Lisp rather than Unix/C. They had started to lose traction after the onset of AI Winter:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_machine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_winter

The authors of the book basically are Lisp aficionados who mourn the good old days when they could get by using elegant Lisp machines instead of clunky, user hostile Unix boxes.

The book itself is an entertaining read insofar as I can remember. (My memory might be playing tricks on me though; I read it 10-15 years ago.)

The authors obviously cherry pick to maximize Unix bashing. The authors make a number of very valid points - some of which still apply today. The tone is usually playful. But then, at times, contempt with a pinch of self-importance emerges, and you're left wondering why you're bothering to continue reading a 300+ page long rant... only to realize that the points made are so obnoxiously valid (or, at least, were when I read it) that you continue.

Dennis Ritchie's anti-forward passage return the favor, too:

> Your book is a pudding stuffed with apposite observations, many well-conceived. Like excrement, it contains enough undigested nuggets of nutrition to sustain life for some. But it is not a tasty pie: it reeks too much of contempt and of envy.

Re: The Unix-Haters Handbook (1994) [pdf]

#45

While entertaining, I'm left with the following question: if not UNIX, then what? Are there any successful non-UNIX-y OSes that are worth checking out? I may embarrass myself here, but I was under the impression that BSD, Plan 9, Solaris and HP-UX were all UNIX-y ...

- Temple OS. Very simple OS but has interesting innovations. http://www.codersnotes.com/notes/a-constructive-look-at-temp...

- Amiga OS / Morph OS

- Menuet OS / Kolibri OS. minimalistic and 100% written in Assembly.

Re: The Unix-Haters Handbook (1994) [pdf]

#46
post #37
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but try and figure out how you'd do better... efficient.ly. Over the network...

You can't do opengl efficiently over the network. At least xorg can't. Most applications uses opengl these days. For me, I've been using Linux fulltime for the last 15 years and I have never, not even once, had the need to connect to a remote X11 server. ssh has always been enough for me.

I think it is likely that your lack of need for running applications remotely largely reflects another change: the rise of the web. We run fewer native applications than we used to, for better and for worse. I run mostly a browser and a terminal. The browser has taken much of the role X11 had, and things like VNC have taken most of the rest.

Re: The Unix-Haters Handbook (1994) [pdf]

#47
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>there remained a very large number of people with fond memories of other platforms, many of which did at least some things better than any contemporary or even modern Unix. Yeah, that's what I'm curious about. Could you name names? :)

I still miss things from AmigaOS (still being developed, but ultra-niche; with "clones" in the form of AROS - which is open source - and MorphOS). Things like ubiquituous scriptability of apps via Arexx (the language is awful, but you don't need to use the language much to call the APIs), heavy multi-threading throughout the OS, datatypes (new image format? drop a library in the right directory and every application…

Assigns sound a bit similar to how Plan9 handles the "everything is a file" thing

Re: The Unix-Haters Handbook (1994) [pdf]

#48
I think that quite a bit in this book is outdated by now, but it's still a fun read, even as Unix person.

Especially the chapter on NFS was a fun read. When I first set up my home server, I had my desktop lock up completely a few times when the server became unavailable, because of NFS. (Then I found out one can mount NFS shares in interruptible mode so the requests will eventually time out... but it was so annoying up to that point.)

Re: The Unix-Haters Handbook (1994) [pdf]

#49
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>there remained a very large number of people with fond memories of other platforms, many of which did at least some things better than any contemporary or even modern Unix. Yeah, that's what I'm curious about. Could you name names? :)

Amiga OS, BeOS

And consequently, HaikuOS

Re: The Unix-Haters Handbook (1994) [pdf]

#50
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that GNU is Not UNIX and many companies still have UNIX boxes without GNU on them.

Correct. And the last time I came across one of those I compiled and used modern tools. Because even 20 year old Linux versions had tab complete and a vi that worked with directional keys

Assuming one has the access rights for it.

I do occasionally ssh into boxes were I am a lame user without compilers installed.

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