Rant HN: I hate hackerrank • Hacker News Board

Re: Rant HN: I hate hackerrank

#41

Post by hw » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 4:03 PM UTC

I loathe algorithm questions, and I almost always never ask them when I'm interviewing a candidate. Too often have I seen candidates who ace 6 rounds of algorithm interviews, only to struggle when it comes to building actual products and require a ton of handholding.

On the other hand, I've seen candidates who fail interviews that are algorithm heavy, but have done exceptionally well when it comes to the practical world - doing actual work and building apps and contributing to the team instead of writing the next (insert your fav tricky algorithm question here) solver.

It's unfortunate that while many companies that are hiring are just run-of-the-mill SaaS and apps companies that don't require you as an engineer to use algorithms or DP on a daily basis (or even ever), you still see algorithm heavy interviews at these companies.

On Hackerrank, I don't necessarily hate it as a tool, but just the questions that get asked through it. I don't like that it automates an interview process to a certain extent, as a candidate's potential and skills and experience and fit in the team can't exactly be measured via an automated process but requires actual human to human interaction. If a company rejects you on the basis of failing a Hackerrank question and hasn't even talked to you, you're better off working for a different company.

Re: Rant HN: I hate hackerrank

#42

Post by bunderbunder » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 4:04 PM UTC

tony wrote: post #31

For their own expedience. It's an employer's market. It costs 2.5k/yr to keep an SO posting up and get thousands of resumes in your inbox. I'd also say a fair share of those in Who's Hiring on HN aren't in dire need of filling seats, but just trying to see how far people with fling themselves through the mazes. Blissfully unaware they're not the only startup and have no way of offering the stability of a large compan…

"Come freelance with us for a week" seems even worse to me.

For starters, there is a very small and fairly specific subset of the population that can afford to carve out a whole week for an extended interview, even if you do pay them for their time.

Re: Rant HN: I hate hackerrank

#43

Post by djhworld » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 4:04 PM UTC

One of the things that always interests me around our industry is this.

I'm wondering how other industries do it, I mean, once Doctors get their medical license, if they want to move to a different clinic or hospital, do they have to attend an interview demonstrating their knowledge, doing a whiteboard session on a "Dr House" style medical problem that they have to diagnose in Or do they present their medical credentials, and get interviewed on their bedside manner, their ability to work in a team (if applicable), anecdotes about their past experiences etc?

Re: Rant HN: I hate hackerrank

#44

Post by banachtarski1 » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 4:06 PM UTC

dilap wrote: post #36

nicksergeant wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side, now you have no idea if a developer is any good, because all they have to do is memorize a bunch of garbage interview algo techniques / questions.

Dunno about hackerrank, but if you can consistently do well on topcoder algo or codeforces competitions, that's beyond having memorized stuff -- that's being genuinely good at problem solving, and having a broad base of knowledge about important algorithms. I'd be happy to work with you.

Ditto on this. Someone who is passionate about algorithms outside of just memorizing interview problems i.e - they find problems like this - http://codeforces.com/contest/724/problem/G - interesting, usually have high problem solving and mathematical aptitude.

Perhaps I'd like to draw a distinction between genuine algorithms problems that you haven't seen before, and the really bad interview questions like "Find a cycle in a linked list". You'd be really hard pressed to find anyone who could solve the problem above.

Edit: To clarify, I would not remotely consider the linked Codeforces problem as a good interview problem.

Re: Rant HN: I hate hackerrank

#45

Post by tluyben2 » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 4:06 PM UTC

tspike wrote: post #20

nicksergeant wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side, now you have no idea if a developer is any good, because all they have to do is memorize a bunch of garbage interview algo techniques / questions.

What is your preferred interviewing method?

For people with 5+ years of experience (like OP), I look at and talk about their portfolio; he did actually built stuff that runs in production, so let's see how that came to be. And show parts you have written and are proud of. We are probably in that interview because your skill set matches (somewhat) the problems we are trying to solve, hence your past projects will have similarities with our projects. That interests me. I can find out if you are a self starter, if you have any business sense by chance, management/tutor potential etc. That you can solve some complex thing in 5 minutes is of no interest to me at all, ever.

Re: Rant HN: I hate hackerrank

#46

Post by jacques_chester » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 4:07 PM UTC

Here's how I was assessed for my job at Pivotal:

1. I did a simple tech screen (the RPI). 1 hour. My interviewer had a laptop and asked me questions about what to do next in the scenario.

2. Hey, come pair with this engineer on this real code on a real project on a real task.

3. How about lunch?

4. Hey, let's have you pair with this other engineer on real code on a real project on a real task.

5. Get offered a job on my way out the door.

I know from feedback that we don't always do this right, that we sometimes drop the ball, that many people find the RPI or the pairing to be frustrating, intimidating, or uncomfortable.

Most importantly, many people find that they just don't want to work the way we prefer. Which is good! It saves them the unhappiness of committing to a situation that won't enjoy.

But the core insight is: the best way to see if someone can work alongside us on a real problem is to ask them to come in to work alongside us on a real problem.

It's the best proxy we have short of hiring you. When it's available as an option to do this, I don't understand why anyone would choose a less accurate proxy.

Re: Rant HN: I hate hackerrank

#47

Post by quantumhobbit » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 4:08 PM UTC

I don't mind algorithms and brain teasers if they are presented well. As in the interviewer makes it clear they aren't looking for a single right answer but want observe how you solve a problem. Plus I enjoy a good puzzle.

My problem with hackerrank is that the problem statements are often unclear and have artificially short deadlines. I feel like it forces my to use unreadable and sloppy coding to just get any solution out the door before the timer runs out.

Re: Rant HN: I hate hackerrank

#48

Post by throwaway_415 » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 4:09 PM UTC

Just to add two points that bother me the most:

1. It doesn't actually test my ability. Most of the time there is a stackoverflow solution and I'm going to just look it up and regurgitate it. I can't remember where I read this but allegedly it took Knuth a day of thinking to come up with the most optimal solution for one of the presented challenges (it was either the maximum subarray sum or stock sell problem).

2. It's all very well preparing for these interviews at my age (under 30, no responsibilities or family, generous severance from my previous employer), however, what happens 10 years down the line with responsibilities and hungry mouths to feed.

Re: Rant HN: I hate hackerrank

#49

Post by bshimmin » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 4:10 PM UTC

imjustsaying wrote: post #39

rajeshmr wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the same way. Mostly biased towards jr. And management seems like a good option for long term career growth.

Isn't it a bad omen for any industry when the most realistic career advancement path is management?

Isn't that how most industries work, from flipping burgers to the legal profession? Why should tech be any different?

Re: Rant HN: I hate hackerrank

#50

Post by 0xmohit » Sat, Oct 08, 2016, 4:10 PM UTC

Not many within a team that is hiring either have the time or skills to assess candidates. Employers are looking for a magic solution to fulfill their staffing needs.

Companies such as Hackerrank have thereby managed to convince employers that they have the solution to all the hiring problems. Essentially a magic wand which would enable them to hire Einsteins.