College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets • Hacker News Board

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#41

Post by rm_-rf_slash » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 8:33 PM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #37

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We aren't going to have kids we can't support. Right now we absolutely cannot, and even in five years time things will still be looking relatively tight. We might be able by then to scrape together a down payment on a mortgage, or have a child, but not both. The biological window gets smaller by the day. Why bother?

Personally, I don't think that's wise. 20 years is a long time and the whole setup is getting more ridiculous by the day. I fully expect that it will collapse under its own weight before your kids have to make the decision. (Nothing necessarily explosive , just something like "alternate routes into white-collar well-paid entry-level work will be well-trod at that point, avoiding the need for expensive college or bidd…

I would like to believe you. Really I would. But I have to plan for the future that I expect, not the one I want.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#42

Post by kmkemp » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 8:36 PM UTC

nine_k wrote: post #32

cheald wrote: post #21

And yet, college enrollment continues to trend upward. The price continues to climb, but it's clearly not unaffordable yet. http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d15/tables/dt15_302.60.as...

It's financed by debt. That is, it's probably already unaffordable because the debts are going to be crippling, but it's not felt yet. It's like you're already severely poisoned but are not yet feeling the effects, and more people around see you and consider the poison for themselves.

Agreed. It doesn't make any sense to conclude that a good isn't overpriced when

(1) the government has created ways to subsidize its cost (2) created a means by which it can be paid for with debt (3) as a society, kids have been brainwashed to believe that college is the only path to prosperity

The OP assertion only holds up in a free market.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#43

Post by nine_k » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 8:36 PM UTC

College may become unaffordable, but education should not.

With price pressure like this, I suspect online and other forms of post-high-school education will become more and more valuable. Employers will start looking at them with more attention, and definitely certificates of passing serious exams will become (more) valuable.

Of course, these exams certificates are not going to be free, and even the online courses are not going to be free. But they are going (and currently are) massively less expensive than a college, while possibly giving comparable levels of knowledge. (Also, the "buy new books" racket will hopefully be gone with online courses + relatively independent exams.)

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#44

Post by rm_-rf_slash » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 8:36 PM UTC

gist wrote: post #39

tptacek wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My impression from my peer group is that most people from my generation that went to college take on significant debt to do it. Isn't this basically the normal path people take to pay their way through college? (I didn't go.) Having kids is obviously a deeply personal decision and don't think I'm second-guessing you, but college funding is probably not a dispositive concern.

The problem with college is not that you have "significant debt". The problem is choosing majors and/or a career path that doesn't allow you to pay off that debt. My wife has "significant debt" from college and medical school (roughly 200k) that she will pay off over 20 to 30 years (or whatever it is). However she earns a good salary for what she does. As a result the cost of the education is similar to a cost of doi…

That is a great answer and illuminates the serious ups and downs with higher education. However, I have two points that prevent me from changing my views:

1: The ex husband is a great example of how someone can go into tremendous debt that cannot be discharged through bankruptcy and still come out with nothing.

2: The rapidly increasing price of higher education compounds the risk of making the wrong choice. A mistake that could tail you for decades could instead be with you to the grave.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#45

Post by spdionis » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 8:36 PM UTC

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #22

billmalarky wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"assuming costs rise at the same rate as the last 30 years" I just can't believe that will happen. The millennial generation has been burned HARD by higher education. I'm guessing the demand for expensive programs loaded with amenities that provide little value will plummet by the time their kids come of age. I expect huge growth in low-frills low-cost technical programs. Also, the insane cost of higher education is…

Theres no network, no alumni connection, no shared sense of pride for an alma mater in a low cost no frills technical program. Like they say, it's not what you know, it's who you know.

Well, you don't necessarily need that to "succeed in life".

Doesn't sound like a good reason for not having a child. It's almost literally throwing the baby out with the water. But that's just my opinion of course.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#46

Post by Sacho » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 8:37 PM UTC

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #20

talmand wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's how we get Idiocracy.

Precisely. At this rate, I don't see much advantage in bringing a few snowflakes into this world to combat the tidal waves of ignorance. And that's assuming I can give them a childhood that was even a fraction of mine.

Perhaps you havent considered all the possible options. What about wiping your debt, saving money and moving to a developing country to start your family?

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#47

Post by bradleyjg » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 8:37 PM UTC

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #3

My partner and I - both well-educated and well-employed professionals - sketched out our long-term financial plan recently. The only way we envisioned owning property would be to build our own a considerable distance away from our small city's center. That alone proved to be a significant part of our budget, which is already under considerable pressure from student loans and car payments. We estimated the expenses fo…

The only way we envisioned owning property would be to build our own a considerable distance away from our small city's center. That alone proved to be a significant part of our budget, which is already under considerable pressure from student loans and car payments.

Why must you own property?

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#48

Post by cheald » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 8:37 PM UTC

nine_k wrote: post #32

cheald wrote: post #21

And yet, college enrollment continues to trend upward. The price continues to climb, but it's clearly not unaffordable yet. http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d15/tables/dt15_302.60.as...

It's financed by debt. That is, it's probably already unaffordable because the debts are going to be crippling, but it's not felt yet. It's like you're already severely poisoned but are not yet feeling the effects, and more people around see you and consider the poison for themselves.

Sounds like the solution might be to ease back on guaranteed student loans and tighten up available credit so it goes to qualified borrowers who are likely to be able to pay back what they borrow, rather than mandating that everyone who wants to goes to college without any consideration for ability to repay what they've borrowed.

But then, that would result in decreasing enrollment rates and hysterics in the headlines about how kids can't afford education, and we can't have that. We've worked ourselves into a corner - by subsidizing education so heavily in pursuit of increased attendance rates, we've driven prices sky-high, and now can't cut those subsidies without hanging some people out to dry.

We'll know that college is truly unaffordable - or at least the college premium reaches the point where it's not worth the cost - when enrollment rates start trending downwards. Until then, it's a giant ball of subsidies and relief programs and reforms and restructurings that work to maintain a system that is empirically affordable, even if it's extremely painful.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#49

Post by gist » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 8:38 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #33

vkou wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people are not children of two working, well-educated professionals. If that family can't afford to give their children a future without selling them into debt, the American dream is truly dead.

I mean, I agree that they're not children of the elite, but they go to college anyways. College debt is annoying, but I'd be surprised to hear it's a top 5 concern for any of them. For whatever it's worth, the idea that the "American Dream" requires a college education is itself a little weird.

Look everybody quite honestly feels entitled. The fact is not everyone can go to the best schools or they wouldn't be the best schools. (Because they are the best because they are selective, not just because they give a good education). And even if everyone got the same good education there will still be a pecking order of people that get selected as the best and the brightest. No way around that. But people don't want to hear that they want to hear that everyone can go to Harvard and get a high paying job and that we are all equal. But that's not the way the world works (or even the way the sports or entertainment business works).

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#50

Post by brianlweiner » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 8:38 PM UTC

jamesroseman wrote: post #13

I think a reality that will hopefully soon catch up with societal stigma in the United States is that college isn't right for everyone. I understand this as a separate point from college being unattainably expensive, but it is an important point. I have friends who would be mechanics, Peace Corps volunteers, electricians, or plumbers if they hadn't instead gone to a private 4-year institution, pressured to attend the…

I don't think Peace Corp really encourages non college grads from joining, and I'd strongly discourage any 18 year old from signing up.