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The U.S. has ‘worst elections of any long-established democracy,’ report finds

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Re: The U.S. has ‘worst elections of any long-established democracy,’ report finds

#41

Post by maxerickson »

Grishnakh wrote: post #35
themartorana wrote: post #7

Gerrymandering has outrageous results [0] and voter suppression of minorities is right out of a novel [1]. It's so screwed up that votes almost don't matter, depending on who last classified what voting district you're in. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/01/13/this-... [1] http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2016/02/02/3745296/major-vo...

Gerrymandering is completely overblown as a problem. Proof: the 2016 Presidential primaries.

Would you mind expanding the thought a bit? Many states have closed primaries (so participating in one primary precludes participating in others) and the delegate allocation rules are pretty complicated. Lots of delegates are awarded at the state level, where Gerrymandering won't have much impact.

Re: The U.S. has ‘worst elections of any long-established democracy,’ report finds

#42

Post by pdkl95 »

virmundi wrote: post #27
sremani wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany, really?! Germany is an export oriented economy (45% of GDP) and had to hold Greece hostage to Euro. If Greeks had drachma, they could have devalued and probably would be able to wrest some industry away from Central and Western Europe. Germany is a bad bad example, one thing automation will do, is bring back manufacturing locally, since the labor costs will diminish, so export oriented economies like Germany…

Germany finally figured out that European domination didn't require war. Centuries of bloodshed taught them that that it's better to control via politics than the barrel.

Hence the Greek plan to counter that attack with bankruptcy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvl9N9GdraQ

(warning: NSFW language, loud)

Re: The U.S. has ‘worst elections of any long-established democracy,’ report finds

#43

Post by aaron-lebo »

pessimizer wrote: post #37
RyanMcGreal wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then there's Bernie who refuses to aknowledge any extremes of socialism. One of these criticisms is not like the others. Sanders is a moderate democratic socialist - in any other industrialized country, he'd be considered mildly left of centre. Let's not equate his slightly out-of-step politics with the actual abuses and mendacities of the other candidates.

If you can't find something bad to say about everyone, it ruins the rhythm of the "plague on both your houses" argument. I read an editorial the other day about how the three remaining presidential candidates were disrespecting the voting public; Trump was cited for saying racist things, but insisting that they weren't racist, Clinton cited for saying things about her email server that contradicted what the State Dep…

Or, you may believe that extremism in all forms is bad.

Every single side has valid criticisms. We are foolish to think otherwise. My personal belief is that we cannot go for another 4 years without some kind of political movement. We can't keep seeing stagnation. That breeds discontent, anger, violence. You saw it in the 60s and you see it now.

When I listen to Sanders, though I am empathetic to many of his points, I see someone who can't operate within political realities. The right called Obama a socialist and refused to work with him. What do you think happens with an actual socialist? I don't agree with many of the very conservative views of the people who live around me, but I can tell you right now that those people would despise Sanders, whether that's his fault or not. Nothing would get done, another four years of gridlock, and maybe worse. Sanders can't help it that people are loons. But he can adapt to reality and come up with pragmatic positions. You can't go to the far left (relative to American politics as a whole) in one election cycle, ignoring whether you'd want to.

I also am very troubled with Sanders continued association with groups that are violent. He should as quickly disavow those groups as Trump should've disavowed the KKK. Political violence should be condemned in all forms, and those peple don't deserve a mouthpiece, regardless of the validity of their criticisms. The whole world ending up blind and all that.

JFK had a belief in idealism without illusions. Sanders is idealist but I fear he also has a lot of illusions, and part of that is because he's grown up in the echo chamber of a political career.

Do you believe that Sanders has a realistic change of changing American politics for the better? Why? Why is he a compelling candidate? If you believe that Clinton is a flawed politician, why was he not more attractive than her in the primaries?

Re: The U.S. has ‘worst elections of any long-established democracy,’ report finds

#45

Post by pessimizer »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #43
pessimizer wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can't find something bad to say about everyone, it ruins the rhythm of the "plague on both your houses" argument. I read an editorial the other day about how the three remaining presidential candidates were disrespecting the voting public; Trump was cited for saying racist things, but insisting that they weren't racist, Clinton cited for saying things about her email server that contradicted what the State Dep…

Or, you may believe that extremism in all forms is bad. Every single side has valid criticisms. We are foolish to think otherwise. My personal belief is that we cannot go for another 4 years without some kind of political movement. We can't keep seeing stagnation. That breeds discontent, anger, violence. You saw it in the 60s and you see it now. When I listen to Sanders, though I am empathetic to many of his points,…

> Or, you may believe that extremism in all forms is bad.

I assume you're using the "aaron-lebo" scale of extremism.

I'm not saying you should support Sanders, I'm saying that disagreement with his positions is substantially different then denying that Trump has said racist things, or insisting that the State Department allowed Clinton to do business on a privately administered email server located in her home after the State Department says that it didn't. You can accept the falseness of both of those claims while still agreeing with Trump and Clinton on policy.

Re: The U.S. has ‘worst elections of any long-established democracy,’ report finds

#46

Post by aaronbrethorst »

douche wrote: post #39
mikeash wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Clinton wins, it won't be because her email stuff is dismissed as a conspiracy, it will be because we only have two choices and the other one is vastly worse. (Don't try to tell me about other choices. Third party candidates are the frictionless pulleys of American politics.)

If I have to listen to her speak for four years on the nightly news, I might bail and move to Canada. My ears can't take that kind of prolonged shrieking.

Misogyny has no place here.

Re: The U.S. has ‘worst elections of any long-established democracy,’ report finds

#47

Post by aaron-lebo »

pessimizer wrote: post #45
aaron-lebo wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, you may believe that extremism in all forms is bad. Every single side has valid criticisms. We are foolish to think otherwise. My personal belief is that we cannot go for another 4 years without some kind of political movement. We can't keep seeing stagnation. That breeds discontent, anger, violence. You saw it in the 60s and you see it now. When I listen to Sanders, though I am empathetic to many of his points,…

> Or, you may believe that extremism in all forms is bad. I assume you're using the "aaron-lebo" scale of extremism. I'm not saying you should support Sanders, I'm saying that disagreement with his positions is substantially different then denying that Trump has said racist things, or insisting that the State Department allowed Clinton to do business on a privately administered email server located in her home after…

Well, yeah, seeing as how it's my opinion. I don't know what other scale I should follow...I certainly don't expect you to follow mine, but it doesn't mean we can't discuss them.

Sanders' actions may not put him in the same category as Clinton and Trump, but corruption can only exist within a system where decent people are either not competent at fighting them or...not that different themselves.

I'm not asking for much. We've had brilliant politicians who have handled much worse crisis. Is Sanders up to the challenge? How so?

We probably aren't going to get anywhere. All I'm asking is that we are willing to question our most deeply held political beliefs. Sometimes we (me, you, everyone else) are wrong.

Re: The U.S. has ‘worst elections of any long-established democracy,’ report finds

#48

Post by threatofrain »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #2

People aren't willing to make their politicians accountable. It's always the other person's fault, the other side's extremes; never their own. You've got Clinton running an email server exposed to the world as secretary of state, ignoring warnings about it and then lying about it. Yet she will probably end up getting elected because it's all a "Republican conspiracy". Meanwhile, Trump is calling a judge's ruling into…

People enjoy echo chambers and they like intuitive morality -- where their intuitions naturally judge themselves moral.

People have the prerogative to associate with whomever they want in real life and on Facebook, and people have the prerogative to engage in mutual communications with those they wish. That means people have the prerogative to create their own bubbles, which exists as much online as it does offline. This is the product of the sum of free choices, not the people who work on the iPhone or Instagram.

The tech industry simply made it possible for people to communicate cheaply and easily, but technology workers do not own the tech industry, and they do not own the media industry.

The technology community is numerically tiny and disorganized as a voting bloc. They don't even have a union, or a professional association like the APA or AMA, which are known for their lobbying power and organization. And most importantly, they are not owners. They do not own the handful of American media empires. It is not their prerogative to select which talking heads will show up to which distribution channel. That is the prerogative of Rupert Murdoch and friends.

So when is there going to be the American Technology Association to build consensus and look for channels of influence?

Re: The U.S. has ‘worst elections of any long-established democracy,’ report finds

#49

Post by eldude »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #2

People aren't willing to make their politicians accountable. It's always the other person's fault, the other side's extremes; never their own. You've got Clinton running an email server exposed to the world as secretary of state, ignoring warnings about it and then lying about it. Yet she will probably end up getting elected because it's all a "Republican conspiracy". Meanwhile, Trump is calling a judge's ruling into…

The article you cite disputes your claim, stating the quote was an unfortunate pre-scheduled pre-designed (it was an image with text) tweet that made no mention of the event whatsoever:

"The post was not done in response to last night's tragedy. The post was designed and scheduled last Thursday."

Re: The U.S. has ‘worst elections of any long-established democracy,’ report finds

#50

Post by douche »

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #46
douche wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I have to listen to her speak for four years on the nightly news, I might bail and move to Canada. My ears can't take that kind of prolonged shrieking.

Misogyny has no place here.

You're projecting. I simply said I cannot tolerate the frequencies of her speaking voice. There are men whose voices are profoundly unpleasant to listen to also - it has no bearing on which variety of wedding tackle they are packing. It's like nails on a chalkboard.
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