Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

vox.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 267 posts

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#41

Post by Domenic_S »

goda90 wrote: post #19
ndirish1842 wrote: post #7

I wonder how autonomous driving will affect shorter flight commutes. I'll probably never take a car from Philadelphia to LA, but I might prefer to travel by car from Philadelphia to Chicago if I know that I can sleep throughout the car ride (as well as leave whenever is most convenient). When you take into account driving to the airport, checking bags, security, flight delays, baggage claim, and rental cars/driving t…

Seat width, leg room, baggage limits, noise levels, air temperature, Internet connectivity(cell data vs airplane wifi) and the fact that you're exposed to numerous strangers at risk to your health are all factors that make an individual autonomous car more attractive than an airplane. Airlines will need to do a lot of adapting if they don't want to lose the market for shorter distance travel.

Airlines are already marginal for shorter-distances. SJ to LA is (imo) right at the cusp of being worth it. ~5 hours to drive, maybe SLIGHTLY less door-to-door on an airline. Any aircraft delay throws the whole thing off. Add parking at the airport + last mile travel on arrival and financially it only makes sense if the company pays.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#42

Post by mikeash »

lisper wrote: post #12
rhino369 wrote: post #4

It's easy to say that TSA sucks (it does), but it's hard to propose a workable alternative. Well alternative 1, stop making us take off our shoes and taking out our laptops, its clear from pre-check that it's not really necessary. You need some security. That was clear before 9-11. Airports had security and it was pretty similar to how TSA does it right now. You put your bags on an Xray machine, show your ID, and wal…

> it's hard to propose a workable alternative No, actually, it's really easy. > You need some security. That was clear before 9-11. No, it was not clear then, and it is not clear now. There are two salient facts: 1. When tested, the TSA misses 90% or so of the weapons people try to smuggle past them 2. Notwithstanding #1, there have been zero successful terrorist attack on aircraft in the U.S. since 9-11. So it is fa…

Back when there was little to no airport security at all, hijackings were far more common than they are now. In the late 60s and early 70s, hijackings ran in the dozens per year. I see no evidence that TSA-style pat-downs and shoe removal and liquid bans are necessary, but it does appear to be useful to have some minimal level of screening so that a crazy person doesn't just toss an AK-47 in his bag and take it on the plane.

If your argument is that current airport security arrangements don't even prevent that, then why did attacks fall off so sharply once basic security was implemented?

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#43

Post by pc86 »

two2two wrote: post #29

TSA is the number one reason why I don't fly and drive instead. From my POV most of the world's industries have progressed positively, but not air travel. I took a train a couple of years ago and it was a beautiful example of old merging with new. Walking through an antique of a train station, iPhone in hand, with my digital ticket ready to board; so easy and pleasant. At that point I realized that air travel is by f…

The problem is that it's not "at your own risk," it's "at your own risk and the risk of anything that might happen to be underneath you at any point on the journey, or within range of your fuel tanks."

Not that I'm a fan of the TSA by any stretch, but that's a pretty grievous misunderstanding of the root issue.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#44

Post by CheckHook »

two2two wrote: post #29

TSA is the number one reason why I don't fly and drive instead. From my POV most of the world's industries have progressed positively, but not air travel. I took a train a couple of years ago and it was a beautiful example of old merging with new. Walking through an antique of a train station, iPhone in hand, with my digital ticket ready to board; so easy and pleasant. At that point I realized that air travel is by f…

> iPhone in hand, with my digital ticket ready to board; so easy and pleasant.

Most airlines provide the same digital boarding passes, I often travel with my pass added to Apple Wallet.

> If an alternative airport wanted to do things a little different, such as "fly at your own risk" "no lifeguard on duty", aka no TSA b.s., I'd happily take the "at your own risk" option rather than the TSA controlled situation we're subjected to currently.

The problem here is that it's not just "your own risk" if that plane is directed at a populated area.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#45

Post by jrcii »

rhino369 wrote: post #32
lisper wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's hard to propose a workable alternative No, actually, it's really easy. > You need some security. That was clear before 9-11. No, it was not clear then, and it is not clear now. There are two salient facts: 1. When tested, the TSA misses 90% or so of the weapons people try to smuggle past them 2. Notwithstanding #1, there have been zero successful terrorist attack on aircraft in the U.S. since 9-11. So it is fa…

I'd be interested to see how they got the 95% failure rate. If the TSA was sneaking in actual bombs that could bring down airplanes, that is a horrific. But if they were testing someone bringing in a nail clipper with a 1 inch blade tucked into it, a plastic gun, a disassembled "bomb" with no explosive residue, etc, then it's not that bad. The fact that there have been attempts to blow up airplanes, and they all invo…

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transportation_Security_Admini... "In July 2007, the Times Union of Albany, New York reported that TSA screeners at Albany International Airport failed multiple covert security tests conducted by the TSA. Among them was a failure to detect a fake bomb."

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#46

Post by Domenic_S »

dragonwriter wrote: post #38
Domenic_S wrote: post #26

The TSA is a jobs program with a bit of "throw government contracts to your buddies" mixed in. Same with the military to an extent. A TSA Screener job is about the closest we'll get to Basic Income: stand around in an airport occasionally groping people for $13-18/hr, plus awesome Federal benefits. Qualifications: essentially none.

> The TSA is a jobs program with a bit of "throw government contracts to your buddies" mixed in. The TSA is not a jobs program, especially for screening, etc.; those jobs directly replaced private sector jobs. The function was nationalized to move potential liability from the airlines (who contracted with the organizations operating airports, who contracted with private security firms) when they complained about the…

I didn't read the sources in depth, but it looks like the TSA is bigger than the jobs it replaced:

> TSA is a major part of DHS, having a workforce of about 62,000 people. TSA became a large organization very quickly after 2001, when it replaced 16,500 private airport screeners with more than 40,000 federal screeners.

http://www.downsizinggovernment.org/homeland-security/tsa

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#47

Post by sowbug »

rhino369 wrote: post #4

It's easy to say that TSA sucks (it does), but it's hard to propose a workable alternative. Well alternative 1, stop making us take off our shoes and taking out our laptops, its clear from pre-check that it's not really necessary. You need some security. That was clear before 9-11. Airports had security and it was pretty similar to how TSA does it right now. You put your bags on an Xray machine, show your ID, and wal…

> it's hard to propose a workable alternative

How about recognizing that 9/11 was a troll, and we fell for it? The attackers hated the U.S.'s idea of freedom, but they were too powerless to take away our freedom. So they figured out a clever way to make us take away our own freedom ourselves. And yep, we did exactly that.

We honor U.S. military who defend our freedom with their lives. They value freedom more than personal safety, and we respect them for doing that. So why does the rest of our society pick the opposite and humiliate ourselves daily by choosing personal safety over freedom? Why have millions of us agreed to walk around in socks at airports just because some jerk tried to scare us 15 years ago?

A "workable alternative" would be what the Flight 93 people did: beat the living daylights out of people who act up. That approach has worked for tens of thousands of years. Yeah, sometimes you'll get killed, but most of the time you won't, just like our honored military. But most important you'll stop being trolled.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#48

Post by goodcanadian »

avn2109 wrote: post #28
rhino369 wrote: post #4

It's easy to say that TSA sucks (it does), but it's hard to propose a workable alternative. Well alternative 1, stop making us take off our shoes and taking out our laptops, its clear from pre-check that it's not really necessary. You need some security. That was clear before 9-11. Airports had security and it was pretty similar to how TSA does it right now. You put your bags on an Xray machine, show your ID, and wal…

All those problems you mention are real, but they're not the main problem. The real problem with the TSA is that it's explicitly unconstitutional, since the 4th amendment explicitly prohibits search and seizure without a warrant. "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon…

Airport security was tested in the Supreme Court back in the 70s when it was new. Due largely to the fact that it reduced hijackings to almost nil, the court ruled that it was a reasonable exception.

That said, my personal opinion leans closer to your position.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#49

Post by rhino369 »

avn2109 wrote: post #28
rhino369 wrote: post #4

It's easy to say that TSA sucks (it does), but it's hard to propose a workable alternative. Well alternative 1, stop making us take off our shoes and taking out our laptops, its clear from pre-check that it's not really necessary. You need some security. That was clear before 9-11. Airports had security and it was pretty similar to how TSA does it right now. You put your bags on an Xray machine, show your ID, and wal…

All those problems you mention are real, but they're not the main problem. The real problem with the TSA is that it's explicitly unconstitutional, since the 4th amendment explicitly prohibits search and seizure without a warrant. "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon…

It's reasonable to get searched walking onto someone's airplane.

Re: The TSA is a waste of money that doesn't save lives and might actually cost them

#50

Post by carsongross »

The TSA is obviously a complete clusterfuck, but it is offering us an important lesson:

Despite everyone hating it, including Big Business, it persists and will likely continue to exist until the U.S. Government collapses. It is nearly impossible to ratchet back a government program dedicated to "security", among other sacred words.

Look at the solutions being offered: add more workers, more bomb dogs, etc.

The system cannot fix itself. Perhaps the system does not want to fix itself.

Post reply on HN