Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history • Hacker News Board

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#41

Post by oinksoft » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 2:26 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #36

INTPenis wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually an African connection is much more likely, and even documented. I've only read Wikipedia on this matter and I didn't really check the sources carefully but it is said that on his 3rd journey Columbus received orders from the spanish court to travel south because they believed a continent to be there. The continent was south america and it was on this journey that it was "discovered". How the spanish court kn…

> Just so I'm clear, an african kingdom traded and waged war with people in south america before Columbus sailed there. This is at least the claim. Sorry but with what boat technology would the folks from this African Kingdom cross the Atlantic ? I seriously doubt a canoe is realistic - because it if were, America would have been discovered by numerous countries thousands of years earlier.

Of course it's realistic. The Malagasy people are descendants of Polynesians who crossed the Indian Ocean to Madagascar, in canoes. With calm seas, there's no reason you couldn't make such a trip. Canoes can have sails too, and you can row your way out of the doldrums.

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#42

Post by cmrdporcupine » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 2:31 PM UTC

easytiger wrote: post #7

Hardly rewrite, but extend existing knowledge and confirm the veracity of the Sagas

Indeed.

The sagas describe the discovered land as Vinland because they found wild grapes growing everywhere.

Which does not describe Newfoundland, especially not the northern tip of it where the L'anse aux Meadows sits. (I've been there. It's cold and desolate. We watched icebergs float around 100 feet from the shore).

But up the gulf of St Lawrence a bit you'll find wild populations of vitis riparia growing like crazy.

Given this new site shows them as having traversed the western shore of Newfoundland and mined iron, presumably for the purpose of producing nails to build ships, I can't see why they would not have gone further up the gulf of St Lawrence, maybe as far as modern day Quebec City or Montreal.

It would be interesting to know what historical levels of the river was at that time. Maybe archaeological evidence is underwater.

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#43

Post by jernfrost » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 2:34 PM UTC

parennoob wrote: post #23

jernfrost wrote: post #5

I am more interested in whether there is any way of find a connection between Columbus and the Vikings. I've read stories before about how Columbus went to Norway and got info there about the Viking exploration. But what I've read just seemed like wild speculation then. Something more solid would have been nice. The reason why that is relevant is that the Viking discovery of America is of no significance if it didn't…

> The reason why that is relevant is that the Viking discovery of America is of no significance if it didn't help European discovery in any way. In my opinion, this is an incredibly narrow-minded view. Native Americans and pretty much the rest of humans were two branches of the human race that had almost been cut off from each other, and re-united after more than 10000 years. Showing the time and extent of this first…

I don't know what your metric for significance is, but for me it is related to the extent of change of history it causes. A Viking discovery which did not influence Columbus in any way is IMO of tiny significance, because whether it happened or not would have made no impact on history.

Colombus discovery of America in contrast caused a dramatic change to development of world history. It could be claimed it was one of the major factors in European world dominance which has affected pretty much every society on the planet the last hundred years.

I am saying this as a Norwegian. As much as I'd loved the Viking discovery of America to mean a lot it is completely overshadowed by the dramatic impact of Columbus discovery on later world events.

Of course there are alternative ways in which Viking discovery could have been important without influencing Columbus. E.g. if they caused significant changes to native American culture, technology etc. But they seem to have had zero influence on native american culture. They were simply too few people to make any sort of influence.

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#44

Post by jo6gwb » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 2:34 PM UTC

elcapitan wrote: post #27

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course a famous Norwegian thinks Columbus is Scandinavian! I'm reminded of the phrase Samuel Eliot Morrison used in his books on the European Discovery of America-"Scandinavery". Its about as realistic as the "runes" discovered in the midwest in the late 19th century. There's a bit of a cottage industry in the US of various ethnic groups either claiming Columbus was really one of their own, or claiming that some o…

Everybody knows that Columbus was German!

In 1492 Columbus was a Jew.

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#45

Post by jbattle » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 2:41 PM UTC

oinksoft wrote: post #41

ekianjo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just so I'm clear, an african kingdom traded and waged war with people in south america before Columbus sailed there. This is at least the claim. Sorry but with what boat technology would the folks from this African Kingdom cross the Atlantic ? I seriously doubt a canoe is realistic - because it if were, America would have been discovered by numerous countries thousands of years earlier.

Of course it's realistic. The Malagasy people are descendants of Polynesians who crossed the Indian Ocean to Madagascar, in canoes. With calm seas, there's no reason you couldn't make such a trip. Canoes can have sails too, and you can row your way out of the doldrums.

There's a big difference between coastwise travel in the Indian ocean and crossing the middle of the south atlantic. Even the big portuguese ships couldn't round the cape of good hope til what - the mid 1500's?. Also it's ~5200 miles from Madagascar to South America.

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#46

Post by to3m » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 2:41 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #36

INTPenis wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually an African connection is much more likely, and even documented. I've only read Wikipedia on this matter and I didn't really check the sources carefully but it is said that on his 3rd journey Columbus received orders from the spanish court to travel south because they believed a continent to be there. The continent was south america and it was on this journey that it was "discovered". How the spanish court kn…

> Just so I'm clear, an african kingdom traded and waged war with people in south america before Columbus sailed there. This is at least the claim. Sorry but with what boat technology would the folks from this African Kingdom cross the Atlantic ? I seriously doubt a canoe is realistic - because it if were, America would have been discovered by numerous countries thousands of years earlier.

Thor Heyerdahl made various sea voyages using pre-modern sailing technology in order to demonstrate that this sort of journey would have been feasible in ancient times. Morocco to Barbados was one such journey: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_Heyerdahl#Boats_Ra_and_Ra...

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#47

Post by jernfrost » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 2:45 PM UTC

dalke wrote: post #20

restalis wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"continent may be extended beyond the confines of continuous dry land to include the shallow, submerged adjacent area (the continental shelf)" Well then, Vikings definitely discovered America because they continuously inhabited Iceland, which sits on both North American and Eurasian continental tectonic plates. EDIT: Followed the suggestion.

If you're so interested in details like that, then you surely know that humans were on North America thousands of years before the Norse, so the Norse didn't "discover" America any more than John Cabot or Christopher Columbus did. (Of course, you are using a different definition of discover; more like how I discovered a great hamburger restaurant in town, even though many others knew of it. I am highlighting how one…

I think discovery always has to relate to its impact with respect to a society. E.g. when a biologist discovers a plant, it is about categorizing it, describing it and publishing his/her findings. That people in the area already know and use the plant isn't really relevant in this context.

Likewise from a European perspective or from the perspective of everybody else not living in north and south America Columbus made a real discovery. To take an extreme example, if a single person goes to an unknown island and stays there, that isn't a discovery, since nobody else gets to learn about it. To be a discovery you have to come back and spread the knowledge.

We all carry DNA inside us but but somebody had to discover it, in the sense of documenting and explaining it to everybody else.

I frankly find this frequent criticism of euro centric world view a bit pedantic. Modern history is naturally euro centric because the present day all across the planet has been strongly shaped by events that happened in Europe. One of those watershed events was Columbus discovery of America. The effects of that had major implication all the way to China, India and Africa.

Should China come to dominate the world in the future, Chinese history would naturally become more significant in world history than today. Understanding the processes that lead to modern day China would be important if modern day China strongly affected all countries around the globe.

To some extent that is already the case, which is why Chinese history is more important than say Olmec or Inca history.

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#48

Post by tremon » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 2:46 PM UTC

oinksoft wrote: post #41

ekianjo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just so I'm clear, an african kingdom traded and waged war with people in south america before Columbus sailed there. This is at least the claim. Sorry but with what boat technology would the folks from this African Kingdom cross the Atlantic ? I seriously doubt a canoe is realistic - because it if were, America would have been discovered by numerous countries thousands of years earlier.

Of course it's realistic. The Malagasy people are descendants of Polynesians who crossed the Indian Ocean to Madagascar, in canoes. With calm seas, there's no reason you couldn't make such a trip. Canoes can have sails too, and you can row your way out of the doldrums.

But the route from Polynesia to Madagascar can be traveled along the shoreline of Asia and Africa, so can be completed without navigational aides. The crossing from Africa to South America is 3000 km of nothing but ocean.

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#49

Post by jernfrost » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 2:47 PM UTC

douche wrote: post #18

jernfrost wrote: post #5

I am more interested in whether there is any way of find a connection between Columbus and the Vikings. I've read stories before about how Columbus went to Norway and got info there about the Viking exploration. But what I've read just seemed like wild speculation then. Something more solid would have been nice. The reason why that is relevant is that the Viking discovery of America is of no significance if it didn't…

I think the more probable connection for Columbus would be the Basque cod fishermen that were fishing off the Grand Banks of Newfoundland years before he sailed the ocean blue.

That is interesting. How do we know about that though, and just to speculate they could have been influenced by Viking discoveries of the same fishing areas.

Re: Discovery of 1,000-year-old Viking site in Canada could rewrite history

#50

Post by pbhjpbhj » Wed, Apr 06, 2016, 2:52 PM UTC

mentatghola wrote: post #34

PBS is airing a program about the discovery tonight, called "Vikings Unearthed". http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/vikings-unearthed.html

There's a similar sounding piece on BBC iPlayer at the moment, http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b076r0sr/the-vikings-un.... Haven't seen it yet though.