PayPal Withdraws Plan for Charlotte Expansion • Hacker News Board

Re: PayPal Withdraws Plan for Charlotte Expansion

#41

Post by gist » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 5:48 PM UTC

oliwarner wrote: post #39

gist wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I view it as dangerous actually. That is corporations with money, power and lawyers determining and overriding voters in yet another way. Doesn't matter how you see this particular issue. The next time it could go in another direction. [1] [1] Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Overriding? They're not writing the law here, they're going where the best laws are (or where the worst aren't). NC gets to keep its shitty laws, PayPal just won't be part of it. What's your alternative here?

No this is a bit different. They are publicly announcing it in a way that says "we don't approve and here is your punishment for taking this route".

Not to mention what about the harm that comes to the citizens who would have held those jobs as well as the other economic impact of the decision? All to citizens who might not have had a say in choosing this outcome?

I won't even get into the impact on stockholders who buy the stock to, in general, make money with their investments not for social issues.

Re: PayPal Withdraws Plan for Charlotte Expansion

#42

Post by vertex-four » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 5:53 PM UTC

throwaway5752 wrote: post #23

joshuaheard wrote: post #9

The law requires men to use the men's room, and women to use the women's room. I don't see the problem with that. If it's really an issue, why can't PayPal just put a third bathroom in its facility for any gender?

That is one of 3 major parts to the bill. You can read for yourself (with the handy diff-like format available here: http://www.ncleg.net/Applications/BillLookUp/LoadBillDocumen... ) or read any or the huge number of analyses of the bill. It is far beyond transsexual citizens of NC, though that aspect of the bill is ridiculous, too. Or will police have to inspect the genitalia of M2F/F2M transitioned people in the pr…

> Or will police have to inspect the genitalia of M2F/F2M transitioned people in the presence of a birth certificate?

Stonewall all over again - "Standard procedure was to line up the patrons, check their identification, and have female police officers take customers dressed as women to the bathroom to verify their sex, upon which any men dressed as women would be arrested."[0]

You'd think the US would be doing a little better nearly 50 years on, eh?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots#Police_raid

Re: PayPal Withdraws Plan for Charlotte Expansion

#43

Post by Avenger42 » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 5:56 PM UTC

gist wrote: post #41

oliwarner wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overriding? They're not writing the law here, they're going where the best laws are (or where the worst aren't). NC gets to keep its shitty laws, PayPal just won't be part of it. What's your alternative here?

No this is a bit different. They are publicly announcing it in a way that says "we don't approve and here is your punishment for taking this route". Not to mention what about the harm that comes to the citizens who would have held those jobs as well as the other economic impact of the decision? All to citizens who might not have had a say in choosing this outcome? I won't even get into the impact on stockholders who…

> I won't even get into the impact on stockholders who buy the stock to, in general, make money with their investments not for social issues.

Several years ago, in response to a request that Apple commit to only agree to measures that wouldn't impact the bottom line, Tim Cook told an activist investor "If you want me to do things only for ROI reasons, you should get out of this stock." (It was in response to a question about Apple's environmental stance, but Tim likened it to a request to ignore accessibility issues.)

If I disagree with Paypal's disagreement, I'm free to withdraw my investment and go to a company that will ignore social issues.

Re: PayPal Withdraws Plan for Charlotte Expansion

#44

Post by gist » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 6:03 PM UTC

Avenger42 wrote: post #43

gist wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No this is a bit different. They are publicly announcing it in a way that says "we don't approve and here is your punishment for taking this route". Not to mention what about the harm that comes to the citizens who would have held those jobs as well as the other economic impact of the decision? All to citizens who might not have had a say in choosing this outcome? I won't even get into the impact on stockholders who…

> I won't even get into the impact on stockholders who buy the stock to, in general, make money with their investments not for social issues. Several years ago, in response to a request that Apple commit to only agree to measures that wouldn't impact the bottom line, Tim Cook told an activist investor "If you want me to do things only for ROI reasons, you should get out of this stock." (It was in response to a questi…

Apple is in a unique position to do that because of the cash that they are throwing off now and their popularity. That was not always the case with Apple (as you are aware) and also is not typically the case with your average corporation. When you are riding high there are many things you can get away with.

> If I disagree with Paypal's disagreement, I'm free to withdraw my investment and go to a company that will ignore social issues.

If you are a long term investor and if the stock is not trading at a good point for you that may not be possible. Let's assume you have a large position in the stock and it has lost money since you bought it as only one example.

Re: PayPal Withdraws Plan for Charlotte Expansion

#45

Post by rootedbox » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 6:07 PM UTC

gist wrote: post #41

oliwarner wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overriding? They're not writing the law here, they're going where the best laws are (or where the worst aren't). NC gets to keep its shitty laws, PayPal just won't be part of it. What's your alternative here?

No this is a bit different. They are publicly announcing it in a way that says "we don't approve and here is your punishment for taking this route". Not to mention what about the harm that comes to the citizens who would have held those jobs as well as the other economic impact of the decision? All to citizens who might not have had a say in choosing this outcome? I won't even get into the impact on stockholders who…

What's wrong with announcing "we don't approve and here is your punishment" of bigoted laws.

Many a company did not work with or in South Africa during apartheid for the same reason.. Was that wrong of them?

Re: PayPal Withdraws Plan for Charlotte Expansion

#46

Post by gecko » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 6:13 PM UTC

Grishnakh wrote: post #28

throwaway5752 wrote: post #24

I will be super interested in Red Hat. They threatened to leave for Atlanta in the past five years. This could not be further from their corporate values, and they have a highly distributed workforce and a big base of operations in Massachusetts and a fair number of people in the Bay Area. McCrory is a real idiot. The money in NC comes from the cities. They may have won a Pyrrhic victory in the gerrymandering, but no…

Well, the people of NC are getting exactly what they deserve. They voted for this. And spare me the whining about gerrymandering. The Governor is elected by everyone in the state; gerrymandering has no effect on that election. If this were really an issue of gerrymandering, we would have seen a crappy bill passed by the Legislature, and sent to the governor, and promptly vetoed because the governor more closely repre…

McCrory campaigned as a middle-of-the-road moderate Republican. He immediately instead delivered on Tea Party values, and once the Republicans won a narrow majority in 2012, they gerrymandered the crap out of the state to cement their control. Not that I voted for McCrory in the first place, but I don't think anyone got what they were expecting out of McCrory, either.

Re: PayPal Withdraws Plan for Charlotte Expansion

#47

Post by throwaway5752 » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 6:19 PM UTC

I am bummed this went off the front page (presumably flagging/downvoting because of people's political disagreements).

* this effects Y Combinator https://ei.ncsu.edu/y-combinator/

* it effects Google Ventures: http://recode.net/2016/04/01/google-ventures-north-carolina-...

* There are local incubators and less formal groups of local startups against it.

Re: PayPal Withdraws Plan for Charlotte Expansion

#48

Post by raould42 » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 6:20 PM UTC

gist wrote: post #44

Avenger42 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I won't even get into the impact on stockholders who buy the stock to, in general, make money with their investments not for social issues. Several years ago, in response to a request that Apple commit to only agree to measures that wouldn't impact the bottom line, Tim Cook told an activist investor "If you want me to do things only for ROI reasons, you should get out of this stock." (It was in response to a questi…

Apple is in a unique position to do that because of the cash that they are throwing off now and their popularity. That was not always the case with Apple (as you are aware) and also is not typically the case with your average corporation. When you are riding high there are many things you can get away with. > If I disagree with Paypal's disagreement, I'm free to withdraw my investment and go to a company that will ig…

So "long term investor" is a code phrase for "corporate profit shill"? If PP is doing something bad then get out, and take the loss. To claim that the loss prevents one from getting out is to proclaim that one values money over e.g. people.

(Sure, if that's like your only money, than that's not so easy a decision.)

Re: PayPal Withdraws Plan for Charlotte Expansion

#49

Post by WJW » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 6:23 PM UTC

gist wrote: post #44

Avenger42 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I won't even get into the impact on stockholders who buy the stock to, in general, make money with their investments not for social issues. Several years ago, in response to a request that Apple commit to only agree to measures that wouldn't impact the bottom line, Tim Cook told an activist investor "If you want me to do things only for ROI reasons, you should get out of this stock." (It was in response to a questi…

Apple is in a unique position to do that because of the cash that they are throwing off now and their popularity. That was not always the case with Apple (as you are aware) and also is not typically the case with your average corporation. When you are riding high there are many things you can get away with. > If I disagree with Paypal's disagreement, I'm free to withdraw my investment and go to a company that will ig…

You are confusing impossible with undesirable. You care about the money more than you care about the social values espoused by the company. I'm not saying that that is wrong, but if you feel incredibly strongly about something then taking the loss may be preferable to violating your core beliefs.

Re: PayPal Withdraws Plan for Charlotte Expansion

#50

Post by JeremyNT » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 6:38 PM UTC

Grishnakh wrote: post #28

throwaway5752 wrote: post #24

I will be super interested in Red Hat. They threatened to leave for Atlanta in the past five years. This could not be further from their corporate values, and they have a highly distributed workforce and a big base of operations in Massachusetts and a fair number of people in the Bay Area. McCrory is a real idiot. The money in NC comes from the cities. They may have won a Pyrrhic victory in the gerrymandering, but no…

Well, the people of NC are getting exactly what they deserve. They voted for this. And spare me the whining about gerrymandering. The Governor is elected by everyone in the state; gerrymandering has no effect on that election. If this were really an issue of gerrymandering, we would have seen a crappy bill passed by the Legislature, and sent to the governor, and promptly vetoed because the governor more closely repre…

There are two NCs.

One is currently in power; the rural, poor, uneducated.

The other is more modern. We live in cities and we want our homes to be good places to live for all people.

You can view maps of this state and how it votes, and the places this law will negatively impact (places where modern industry might have otherwise come) did not vote for this.

There is a war here: rural versus urban. The rural counties are in control and they siphon off tax revenues from the cities. They strip the cities of any local autonomy (not just in this issue) both fiscally and socially.

You can say "the people voted for this" but the people who voted for it are not negatively impacted by it (except that there will be less tax revenue in the cities they can siphon off of).

I'd point out that California has had first hand experience in this regard as well - with Proposition 8. The happy ending to that story defied the will of the Californian people.

Lament the laws of NC, but don't paint us all with the same brush.