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E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

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Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#41
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I'm certainly not making excuses for VW cheating, I think that maybe the EPA needs to revisit its diesel emission standards. The EPA standard is the strictest in the world, and they have successfully ruined many diesel powered devices. Examples: 1) I was recently looking at compact tractors. To meet the standards, new tractors are fitted with Diesel Particulate Filters. Even if they don't flat-out fail (which h…

Of course, gasoline cars went through similar pains in the 70's, and eventually came out better than ever. Emissions controls were really what drove electronic fuel injection [0], which was unreliable at first but far superior to carburetors today. [0]: See motorcycles, which stuck with carburetors as long as possible, until they were forced to implement electronic fuel injection around 2005 due to tightening emissio…

Very true - regulation undeniably accelerates technological advancement for emissions technology ... I think that the key is just striking the right balance. I was just trying to express that in the case of Diesels, the EPA may have done too much too fast.

As an aside, even when the technology matures and goes from "sucks"->"unquestionably better", all of this is not without cost. New car prices have significantly outpaced inflation in the past few decades. For instance, 50 years ago the base model mustang would have cost ~$18k in today's dollars, and the 2015 base model mustang is ~$24k. To many people a forced 33% increase in the cost of a base model vehicle is not trivial -- this is something that disproportionately effects low-income folks. Since the USA is so spread out, in many areas where population density is low it's basically impossible to get by without a car. (I chose the Mustang because somebody else already did the legwork - source: http://fortune.com/2014/10/17/ford-mustang-cost/ )

In my home state of Michigan, we don't have mandatory emissions testing, which I personally see as a good thing. Cars don't last much longer than ~15, maybe 20 years here anyway due to the extensive use of salt on the roads during the winter, so they get replaced quickly enough with newer/better/cleaner models by virtue of the fact that they rust away. I see a lot of people with cars who couldn't afford it if they weren't allowed to drive beaters. As you may have guessed from my post on shopping for tractors, I happen to live in an area where public transport isn't practical for much of the suburban/metro area (Grand Rapids/Holland), although we do have it (to some extent) in the more densely populated sections of town.

Interestingly, with the revitalization of downtown that's been happening around here, many poor people are being pushed into areas where public transportation is either inadequate, not available, or completely and totally unfeasible (if the houses are 200-500+ feet apart, or the small town has a population of 1,000, it just doesn't make sense).

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#42
post #7

Clearly it's the fault of those pesky engineers again, how else could you explain the same type of cheating across multiple divisions of the company. They only other explanation would involve Management, and obviously that's not it. Though the fact that none of the other manufacturers spoke up about the violation of emissions standards when when they must have done their own tests to see how VW managed to get emissio…

While I certainly don't buy the "pesky engineers" argument, it's actually somewhat plausible Porsche didn't know about the cheating (beyond what everyone knew, which was that the stated mileage and emissions were virtually impossible to achieve by any known mechanism). Since they dropped a VW manufactured engine (3.0 TDI) into a shared VW chassis (Touraeg) and built the Cayenne around that, there's a good chance the…

I doubt it. Manufacturers, and especially ones like Porsche, routinely test the quality and performance of their subcomponents. If they didn't they'd be negligent.

The only plausible answer is that they used the same broken metrics that the engine had been programmed to defeat.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#43
post #24

Meanwhile there seems to be no enforcement of large diesel pickups "rolling coal" with modified emissions.

It's a small enough phenomenon that existing enforcement is generally considered a reasonable compromise between combating "rolling coal" and excessively onerous emissions enforcement.

It's also very much a local issue that varies widely across the country, as emissions testing programs are generally administered at a county level.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#44
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought that DEF wasn't a big performance killer? (limp mode with low levels notwithstanding)

The parent poster is talking about DPF (Diesel Particulate Filters), which remove soot from diesel exhaust and require manual cleaning and/or the regeneration process mentioned (where the soot is essentially burnt out of the catalyst). DEF is a fluid which is injected across a catalyst in a process called SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction) which is designed to remove NOx from the exhaust stream. SCR (and the use of…

Yes, I own a VW TDI, I know the difference between the two. AFAIK, EGR adjusts the combustion temperature so as to avoid an overly NOx-producing lean burn. I was responding to the blanket characterization he made in this statement quoted below.

>Many equally horrible solutions to this problem are employed...Others require a separate tank of catalytic fluid that must be filled regularly. _One thing that all of the designs have in common_ (emphasis mine) is poor performance and piss-poor fuel economy. Many vehicles from multiple manufacturers have had trouble with catching on fire due to emissions control systems.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#45

Since Porsche do not use small diesels in their cars this looks to me like the scandal is a lot bigger than first thought. It isn't just the team working on the 1.8 litre diesel engine that fiddled the software, there is something more endemic going on as the 3 litre upwards size engines are implicated. The funny thing is this: Porsche could sue over £25 a day congestion charge (2008) http://www.theguardian.com/busin…

That article is from 2008.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#46

Clearly it's the fault of those pesky engineers again, how else could you explain the same type of cheating across multiple divisions of the company. They only other explanation would involve Management, and obviously that's not it. Though the fact that none of the other manufacturers spoke up about the violation of emissions standards when when they must have done their own tests to see how VW managed to get emissio…

> Clearly it's the fault of those pesky engineers again

Well, in any case, it shows that ethical codes will probably not work for engineering professions (or any profession for that matter).

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#47
post #7

Clearly it's the fault of those pesky engineers again, how else could you explain the same type of cheating across multiple divisions of the company. They only other explanation would involve Management, and obviously that's not it. Though the fact that none of the other manufacturers spoke up about the violation of emissions standards when when they must have done their own tests to see how VW managed to get emissio…

While I certainly don't buy the "pesky engineers" argument, it's actually somewhat plausible Porsche didn't know about the cheating (beyond what everyone knew, which was that the stated mileage and emissions were virtually impossible to achieve by any known mechanism). Since they dropped a VW manufactured engine (3.0 TDI) into a shared VW chassis (Touraeg) and built the Cayenne around that, there's a good chance the…

Why would a set of engineers make such a decision? This is clearly a decision which should be taken only by the SEO? What could their motivations be?

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#48
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surly Porsche has their own quality assurance and compliance engineers though? And they're proper Teutonic Engineers, right? I mean, they're Porsche engineers... They'd just take an engine from their parent company and not see that it lives up to the Porsche marquee? Maybe it's possible, but if it is, Porsche is really not the Porsche I think it is or want it to be.

The A4, Q5, Q7, Touraeg, Phaeton, and a lot of other VW vehicles which used the same 3.0TDI have the exact same rated power, which suggests that the engine calibration probably was shared as well. So I think it's plausible that Porsche dropped the engine in, went through their usual drive testing and tuning, and never thought about the emissions since they were already handled on the VW side.

Porsche have a bit more go juice than a lot of the other stuff.

If they did a ECU remap (likely) coupled with some hw changes to the engine (maybe, maybe not), they would likely have at least suspected something.

Like, I can tune my Lancer Evo, with stock parts, to around 360 chp / 290 whp from 291 chp / 220 whp. This will put more strain on the parts, to nuke the little gas mileage, up the emissions (no CARB), and void the warranty on the drivetrain. In order to do that the ECU needs to be flash (by say cobbs tuning) and if there was a cheating thing they will need to be aware of it or else it'd be likely gone in the flash.

If I was to put on new parts and make it go even more... Then for sure you need a new tune to make it actually work properly.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#49
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, gasoline cars went through similar pains in the 70's, and eventually came out better than ever. Emissions controls were really what drove electronic fuel injection [0], which was unreliable at first but far superior to carburetors today. [0]: See motorcycles, which stuck with carburetors as long as possible, until they were forced to implement electronic fuel injection around 2005 due to tightening emissio…

Very true - regulation undeniably accelerates technological advancement for emissions technology ... I think that the key is just striking the right balance. I was just trying to express that in the case of Diesels, the EPA may have done too much too fast. As an aside, even when the technology matures and goes from "sucks"->"unquestionably better", all of this is not without cost. New car prices have significantly ou…

Mustangs got more expensive, but that's only one data point :)

http://blog.caranddriver.com/are-cars-getting-less-affordabl...

Heavily salted states certainly have an easier time justifying no emissions testing. You start out with a "known good" (regulated by the EPA) and count on cars to expire quickly. Compare to California, which thanks to gentle climate still has a huge fleet of 1980's cars on the road.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#50

Clearly it's the fault of those pesky engineers again, how else could you explain the same type of cheating across multiple divisions of the company. They only other explanation would involve Management, and obviously that's not it. Though the fact that none of the other manufacturers spoke up about the violation of emissions standards when when they must have done their own tests to see how VW managed to get emissio…

It's all just a play to get us to accept always-on emissions checkers on every car complete with location logging, you know, for verification.

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