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E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

nytimes.com

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Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#31

Post by Nelson69 »

bri3d wrote: post #7
Johnny555 wrote: post #4

Clearly it's the fault of those pesky engineers again, how else could you explain the same type of cheating across multiple divisions of the company. They only other explanation would involve Management, and obviously that's not it. Though the fact that none of the other manufacturers spoke up about the violation of emissions standards when when they must have done their own tests to see how VW managed to get emissio…

While I certainly don't buy the "pesky engineers" argument, it's actually somewhat plausible Porsche didn't know about the cheating (beyond what everyone knew, which was that the stated mileage and emissions were virtually impossible to achieve by any known mechanism). Since they dropped a VW manufactured engine (3.0 TDI) into a shared VW chassis (Touraeg) and built the Cayenne around that, there's a good chance the…

Surly Porsche has their own quality assurance and compliance engineers though? And they're proper Teutonic Engineers, right? I mean, they're Porsche engineers... They'd just take an engine from their parent company and not see that it lives up to the Porsche marquee?

Maybe it's possible, but if it is, Porsche is really not the Porsche I think it is or want it to be.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#33

Post by [deleted] »

wnevets wrote: post #11
idbehold wrote: post #8

Why doesn't the EPA simply ban the sale of any car manufactured by VW until they start passing the new emissions tests? Even better, begin requiring previously purchased VW cars pass these emissions tests. If the cars don't pass the new emissions tests then VW is required to reimburse the blue book value of the car for false advertising, fraud, and acting in bad faith.

>Why doesn't the EPA simply ban the sale of any car manufactured by VW do they have the legal authority to do so? If they did, I doubt the republican led congress would stand by idly.

[deleted]

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#34

Post by selimthegrim »

danjayh wrote: post #27
bri3d wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I certainly don't buy the "pesky engineers" argument, it's actually somewhat plausible Porsche didn't know about the cheating (beyond what everyone knew, which was that the stated mileage and emissions were virtually impossible to achieve by any known mechanism). Since they dropped a VW manufactured engine (3.0 TDI) into a shared VW chassis (Touraeg) and built the Cayenne around that, there's a good chance the…

While I'm certainly not making excuses for VW cheating, I think that maybe the EPA needs to revisit its diesel emission standards. The EPA standard is the strictest in the world, and they have successfully ruined many diesel powered devices. Examples: 1) I was recently looking at compact tractors. To meet the standards, new tractors are fitted with Diesel Particulate Filters. Even if they don't flat-out fail (which h…

I thought that DEF wasn't a big performance killer? (limp mode with low levels notwithstanding)

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#35

Post by pasbesoin »

Meta: Earlier in the scandal, I recall reading that the engine management software is from Bosch. I should read further, looking for confirmation of this.

If that is the case, then this is an example of the maxim: When you provide a feature, someone will use it to their own ends -- meaning, "misuse" it.

Another example to wave in front of all those politicians and people advocating for encryption "back doors".

If you put the feature in there, people will use it any way that suits them. Including and especially ways that you did not intend nor want.

If it wasn't Bosch, perhaps there was nonetheless some "legitimate" argument within VW for adding this functionality. Enough to get the software folks -- particularly those not making big bucks off of the deal -- to implement this.

But an observant engineer might nonetheless ask themself, 'what might hypothetically be done with this?' And the engineer with a little more real world experience ("the cynic" ;-) might assume that someone will do it, sooner or later.

That was part of my reputation, for a while: Thinking of what was possible, and assuming -- or insisting -- it needed to be addressed. A year or two later, having done so would prove to have been of benefit. It would sometimes piss Management off, in the short term. But eventually, they came around.

Anyway, looking from the outside or the inside: If it's there and can be used "that way", someone's going to get around to doing so.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#36

Post by bri3d »

Nelson69 wrote: post #31
bri3d wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I certainly don't buy the "pesky engineers" argument, it's actually somewhat plausible Porsche didn't know about the cheating (beyond what everyone knew, which was that the stated mileage and emissions were virtually impossible to achieve by any known mechanism). Since they dropped a VW manufactured engine (3.0 TDI) into a shared VW chassis (Touraeg) and built the Cayenne around that, there's a good chance the…

Surly Porsche has their own quality assurance and compliance engineers though? And they're proper Teutonic Engineers, right? I mean, they're Porsche engineers... They'd just take an engine from their parent company and not see that it lives up to the Porsche marquee? Maybe it's possible, but if it is, Porsche is really not the Porsche I think it is or want it to be.

The A4, Q5, Q7, Touraeg, Phaeton, and a lot of other VW vehicles which used the same 3.0TDI have the exact same rated power, which suggests that the engine calibration probably was shared as well. So I think it's plausible that Porsche dropped the engine in, went through their usual drive testing and tuning, and never thought about the emissions since they were already handled on the VW side.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#37

Post by sliverstorm »

Nelson69 wrote: post #31
bri3d wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I certainly don't buy the "pesky engineers" argument, it's actually somewhat plausible Porsche didn't know about the cheating (beyond what everyone knew, which was that the stated mileage and emissions were virtually impossible to achieve by any known mechanism). Since they dropped a VW manufactured engine (3.0 TDI) into a shared VW chassis (Touraeg) and built the Cayenne around that, there's a good chance the…

Surly Porsche has their own quality assurance and compliance engineers though? And they're proper Teutonic Engineers, right? I mean, they're Porsche engineers... They'd just take an engine from their parent company and not see that it lives up to the Porsche marquee? Maybe it's possible, but if it is, Porsche is really not the Porsche I think it is or want it to be.

Well, they're Porsche. I imagine "seeing if it lives up to the Porsche marquee" primarily involves flogging it to make sure it drives well.

Do you associate the Porsche brand with a dedication to fuel economy or low emissions?

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#38

Post by sliverstorm »

danjayh wrote: post #27
bri3d wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I certainly don't buy the "pesky engineers" argument, it's actually somewhat plausible Porsche didn't know about the cheating (beyond what everyone knew, which was that the stated mileage and emissions were virtually impossible to achieve by any known mechanism). Since they dropped a VW manufactured engine (3.0 TDI) into a shared VW chassis (Touraeg) and built the Cayenne around that, there's a good chance the…

While I'm certainly not making excuses for VW cheating, I think that maybe the EPA needs to revisit its diesel emission standards. The EPA standard is the strictest in the world, and they have successfully ruined many diesel powered devices. Examples: 1) I was recently looking at compact tractors. To meet the standards, new tractors are fitted with Diesel Particulate Filters. Even if they don't flat-out fail (which h…

Of course, gasoline cars went through similar pains in the 70's, and eventually came out better than ever. Emissions controls were really what drove electronic fuel injection [0], which was unreliable at first but far superior to carburetors today.

[0]: See motorcycles, which stuck with carburetors as long as possible, until they were forced to implement electronic fuel injection around 2005 due to tightening emissions standards.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#39

Post by bri3d »

selimthegrim wrote: post #34
danjayh wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I'm certainly not making excuses for VW cheating, I think that maybe the EPA needs to revisit its diesel emission standards. The EPA standard is the strictest in the world, and they have successfully ruined many diesel powered devices. Examples: 1) I was recently looking at compact tractors. To meet the standards, new tractors are fitted with Diesel Particulate Filters. Even if they don't flat-out fail (which h…

I thought that DEF wasn't a big performance killer? (limp mode with low levels notwithstanding)

The parent poster is talking about DPF (Diesel Particulate Filters), which remove soot from diesel exhaust and require manual cleaning and/or the regeneration process mentioned (where the soot is essentially burnt out of the catalyst).

DEF is a fluid which is injected across a catalyst in a process called SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction) which is designed to remove NOx from the exhaust stream. SCR (and the use of DEF therein) replaces extensive EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation), not the use of a DPF. Catalytic reduction instead of EGR reduces the load on the DPF and increases economy, since dirty exhaust is not being recirculated and combustion is more efficient. However, they're complimentary systems, not replacements for one another.

Re: E.P.A. Finds More VW Cheating Software, Including in Porsches

#40

Post by alricb »

> new tests that were conducted on all diesel car models in the United States by E.P.A., the California Air Resources Board and the regulatory group Environment Canada.

Environment Canada, a "regulatory group"? It's a department of the Government of Canada, yo.

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