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What’s Really Killing Digital Health Startups

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Re: What’s Really Killing Digital Health Startups

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (Insurance was originally for catastrophic care where the cost for a major illness or surgery would get too high.) Agreed 110%. > Having prices so high that only insurers can pay them means only insurers DO pay them and since hospitals and clinics know this they can charge whatever they want. I've explained this in more detail on another recent HN thread, but basically: prices are 'so high that only insurers can pa…

[1] Medicare reimburses less than the actual costs of services provided per-patient, before accounting for any overhead Hospitals don't even know what a given service costs, so this statement seems to need a little more equivocation around it.

> Hospitals don't even know what a given service costs,

That's not really true. We're talking about the costs of goods sold, which means it's pretty easy to place a lower bound on the marginal costs. For example, if the lab supplies for running a certain test cost $100/unit from the vendor and Medicare pays $93, you know that the hospital is losing money off of it. We're not taking into account the overhead, infrastructure, or any of that stuff, since it doesn't factor into COGS.

Anyway, this number comes straight from Medicare's own figures, astonishingly. I can't dig it up right now, but it's in the public record, somewhere within a ~100 page PDF. I have the PDF at home and have linked to it on HN before. Medicare literally acknowledges that they reimburse less than 100% of the direct costs that they incur (in 2012 it was 93%, IIRC.)

Re: What’s Really Killing Digital Health Startups

#42
post #38

Based on this article whats killing digital health startups is they dont understand they are fundamentally in the integration business. I worked for a company in a total different sector that eventually ended up being acquired for a significant amount of money. More or less the company 'succeeded' because almost everything 'product' wise was window dress. the actual value of the company was the fact that we had done…

So like Zapier but for that sector?

Re: What’s Really Killing Digital Health Startups

#43

I'm in the Health IT space but we took a different approach. Early on we realized most Health IT companies are really pharmaceuticals but they don't realize it. What I mean by this is, you need to have the budget of a pharmaceutical to play in this space: 1 - you need to spend millions to win over consumers and 2 - you need to have an existing network of connections into doctor's offices to convince them of your solu…

Basically you need to go into this knowing it'll take 3-4 years before you can show any traction.

I hope some visionaries VCs will start thinking in those terms, and start investing in this kind of high-impact life-time ventures.

Re: What’s Really Killing Digital Health Startups

#44

Having done exactly this type of integration with legacy systems I think a point that gets glossed over is that it's the startups themselves who are full of engineers who think that the whole world has moved on to using NoSQL Node.js RESTful JSON APIs in the cloud (that buzzword soup was intentional) when the reality is that the majority of established businesses are using unsexy and what they would consider to be "l…

Heh.. you hit the nail on the head here. I've been in health integration for the past five years. By restful nosql whizbang node standards, healthcare is full of really weird old shit, and if you want to interoperate, you have to be ready to party like it's 1999, because a lot of these systems were legacy even then.

It is rather frustrating to see some of the API designs that are finally getting shipped in healthcare now, though. Right now, I'm interfacing with a market leading EMR vendor's web services API. They advertise it as "REST" with a straight face, but it's the lake wobegon of REST APIs, where all of the responses are "HTTP/1.1 201 Created" (even the GETs) and all of the response times are horrible.

Personally, I'm rooting for startups like Redox Engine (https://www.redoxengine.com/) to bring some sanity to this world, because I don't think the EMR vendors are going to do it on their own.

Re: What’s Really Killing Digital Health Startups

#45
post #38

Based on this article whats killing digital health startups is they dont understand they are fundamentally in the integration business. I worked for a company in a total different sector that eventually ended up being acquired for a significant amount of money. More or less the company 'succeeded' because almost everything 'product' wise was window dress. the actual value of the company was the fact that we had done…

So like Zapier but for that sector?

I have been consistently surprised that Zapier hasn't taken off like a rocket. Can anyone explain this?

Zapier integrates an amazingly high number of SaaS's. And aside from the annoying lag due to their frontend being done as a SPA (which doesn't effect their API at all), they seem to be well-built. I do wonder a bit at their pricing, but it's not outrageously overpriced (and underpriced compared to many competitors).

And yet the main people who are using them seem to be the "internet marketing" crowd (who is using them to great effect, by the way).

Off topic, but I've been really perplexed by this. It's not lack of promotion, since Zapier seems to do a lot of that.

Could it be that most non-programmers aren't using programming because they can't learn how to use a programming language, but because they just aren't interested in those technologies, even when they're presented to them as a super-easy web GUI.

Re: What’s Really Killing Digital Health Startups

#46
post #44

Having done exactly this type of integration with legacy systems I think a point that gets glossed over is that it's the startups themselves who are full of engineers who think that the whole world has moved on to using NoSQL Node.js RESTful JSON APIs in the cloud (that buzzword soup was intentional) when the reality is that the majority of established businesses are using unsexy and what they would consider to be "l…

Heh.. you hit the nail on the head here. I've been in health integration for the past five years. By restful nosql whizbang node standards, healthcare is full of really weird old shit, and if you want to interoperate, you have to be ready to party like it's 1999, because a lot of these systems were legacy even then. It is rather frustrating to see some of the API designs that are finally getting shipped in healthcare…

They won't do it on their own because there's really no incentive to make this information easily accessible. Healthcare is like Microsoft and Oracle in the 90's. Everyone wants you locked in to their platforms and services. Add to that the fact that you're constantly dealing with incredibly sensitive information on the level of financial data (arguably even more sensitive) and it gets worse. In finance you have PCI compliance to deal with. It's tough but not as crazy as $50k fines for every instance of leaked data with HIPAA.

Re: What’s Really Killing Digital Health Startups

#47
post #22
post #4

Digital health is difficult since: 1. [B2B] Providers/enterprises aren't willing (or able) to integrate into legacy systems 2. [B2C] Consumers see their futures selves as strangers [1], and most aren't willing to put in time now to prevent something that may or may not happen in the future (e.g. sickness) Which is sad, because this is a huge area for tech to have a meaningful impact on lives. There are definitely som…

The amount of data is also a huge challenge. The HL7 "standard" for patient data exchange is huge - thousands of potential data points with tens of thousands of options. The IDC-10 code set allows more than 14,400 different codes. And that's just the tip of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICD-10 The US ICD-10 Clinical Modification (ICD-10-CM), for instance, has some 68,000 codes. The US also has the ICD-10 Procedur…

A lot of the HL7 stuff could be made a lot simpler if the hospitals embraced a simpler subset--instead, everybody picks and chooses features and fields, as do vendors, and then punt it off to integration work. It's dumb.

Re: What’s Really Killing Digital Health Startups

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did. VA pioneered emr... OpenVista by medsphere is based on Vista, the gov emr... All emr companies are walled gardens. In 2009 I built the first mobile HL7 compliant client for the iPhone which was emr agnostic and could work with any emr -across an esb... But all emr companies shunned us because they wanted to protect their walled gardens. At the time hospitals shunned us because they didn't believe the iPhone…

Yup. We need data at rest standards tied to Medicare reimbursement.

If you can't win with the carrot, switch to the stick.

Re: What’s Really Killing Digital Health Startups

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why doesn't the federal government build an EMR system and require its use as a condition of accepting Medicare payments? Sure, I'd expect a terrible process and result previously (such as the mess healthcare.gov was when rolled out), but I have a lot more faith with the USDS and 18F in place.

They did. VA pioneered emr... OpenVista by medsphere is based on Vista, the gov emr... All emr companies are walled gardens. In 2009 I built the first mobile HL7 compliant client for the iPhone which was emr agnostic and could work with any emr -across an esb... But all emr companies shunned us because they wanted to protect their walled gardens. At the time hospitals shunned us because they didn't believe the iPhone…

Having used the VA's system as a physician a few years ago, I must say it's probably my favorite. Epic, Sorian, etc add a lot of worthless gloss with minimal increases in functionality, in my experience (probably doesn't have good billing modules but those could be added). I've always thought it was a shame that this wasn't govt mandated EMR ... Im usually for competition, but in this case, we've spent millions (billions?) to reinvent the wheel. It's not at all uncommon for me to print labs off of a screen, then fax them to a different facility, where the values are then input by hand back into a (different) EMR. Completely insane, like something out of Terry Gilliam's Brazil.

I also must say that I've seen hospitals make absolutely terrible decisions when it comes to EMRs. Choice of EMR should be treated as if the hospital is constructing a new building, as its costs and lasting impact can be that massive.

Re: What’s Really Killing Digital Health Startups

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did. VA pioneered emr... OpenVista by medsphere is based on Vista, the gov emr... All emr companies are walled gardens. In 2009 I built the first mobile HL7 compliant client for the iPhone which was emr agnostic and could work with any emr -across an esb... But all emr companies shunned us because they wanted to protect their walled gardens. At the time hospitals shunned us because they didn't believe the iPhone…

> HL7 compliant client... which was emr agnostic In my experience, there's no such thing. HL7 is a spec in only the loosest sense of the word. Half the time you had an 80-character console output dumped into the "freetext" fields. Then there's all the codes used for different drugs, tests, admission/discharge (plus differentiating when they're standardized or user-entered with appropriate typos). Point is, all the co…

That's exactly why I'd want to tie a nationwide EHR/EMR system to Medicare reimbursements. In this case, not only must you drag the horse to water, you must force it to drink.
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