Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). Spain
Is not doing too well.
*At the moment
A United States of Europe? Good Luck
41–50 of 91 posts
Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck
#42Nobody I know wants United States of Europe. The European Union is completely undemocratic at it's core, our national leaders have made sure that the electorate has minimal powers and influence over their supranational policing. Sovereignty of the people conflicts with the sovereignty of nations.
"Nobody I know wants United States of Europe."
I'm a Scot and I do - and I'd rather see the UK part of it as well.
I want a democratic EU though - the current structures are undemocratic precisely because they have been designed to please national government rather than the people.
Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's only undemocratic because electors do not seem to care who they send to the EU. But MEP are elected, and the officials that are not elected are nominated by elected officials. I think the only viable EU is a United States of Europe, in which the current countries disappear, and you only have a Federal state and what is currently regions in the current countries. Whether a EU is desirable for the UK is another de…
I can't see the UK joining either, which as a non-British European is fine by me. They're only interested in how much profit they can squeeze out of every situation. This kind of insular individualism has no place in a Federal Europe.
As an English person I believe you are thinking of the whole of the UK as London. Lots of that sort of thing around there, not so much the rest of the place.
Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
I can't see the UK joining either, which as a non-British European is fine by me. They're only interested in how much profit they can squeeze out of every situation. This kind of insular individualism has no place in a Federal Europe.
As an English person I believe you are thinking of the whole of the UK as London. Lots of that sort of thing around there, not so much the rest of the place.
Yes, sorry no offense intended. I was talking about the dominant political philosophy. I lived in Liverpool for 7 years so I am fully aware of the real situation in the UK.
Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck
#45Nobody I know wants United States of Europe. The European Union is completely undemocratic at it's core, our national leaders have made sure that the electorate has minimal powers and influence over their supranational policing. Sovereignty of the people conflicts with the sovereignty of nations.
It's only undemocratic because electors do not seem to care who they send to the EU. But MEP are elected, and the officials that are not elected are nominated by elected officials. I think the only viable EU is a United States of Europe, in which the current countries disappear, and you only have a Federal state and what is currently regions in the current countries. Whether a EU is desirable for the UK is another de…
"The UK is one of the rare capitalist countries"
I would point at our avowedly socialist NHS and disagree with you there.
We're a mixed capitalist/socialist country like pretty much everyone else.
Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
Without all the technocratic apparatus of the European Union involved, the crisis would look a lot worse with countries closing their frontier, blaming their neighbor : it does already happen, but at least, we can talk about it in a kind of civilized manner, which is a much better way to find a solution. In my mind this is obvious a pan European answer is needed. You can not ask Italy and Greece to solve the crisis b…
> You can not ask Italy and Greece to solve the crisis by themselves, when most refugee want to actually go other countries. If the refugees are persecuted so badly in their own countries (which is a condition for getting asylum), they should be happy for any sufficiently safe country that is willing to give them asylum.
Greece is not able at the moment to provide a decent living for 100k+ refugees. My understanding of asylum goes beyond providing a bread a day and a toilet. What help would I expect from my neighbors if I have to leave my home due to war? We are talking medical care, language courses, and working permit. I would expect all of that if I were ever to ask my (global) neighbors for asylum - so I am willing to provide it to those that are in need.
Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck
#47I have not yet met an analysis that would explain why a huge governmental body to politically rule the entire Europe would be a good thing. Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). Most successful large systems grow organically and with time or are forced into a unified whole by a huge effort at control. And th…
> Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). At least Germany, Spain, Italy, France have evolved from a myriad of city states, duchy, great fief, that have been unified, conquered, inherited, etc to form a bigger central power. European separatist movement are usually basing their claims on these previous histori…
It's not only the historical divisions, it's about aptitude from governments to this historical countries.
- This historical countries have different languages. (Euskera, Galician, Catalonian) - This countries are different than other "Autonomous communities" in terms of primary sectors.
Sometimes the Spain government not accept some particular things that happens in this historic countries, plus we come from 39 years of dictatorial state where our languages were banned. Nowadays this historical countries are promoting these languages + spanish, but Spain government didn't accept that.
One of my grandfather got shot for speaking in Galician, another got political asylum in Netherlands after cross the Portuguese border, my family fight for our culture, I want to keep that. I'm spanish but I'm speaking different language, I have different habits, I don't want to be independent but I want that Spanish government try to understand that we are a bit different, only that..
Meanwhile Spain government keeps shot old historic regions and try to kill their culture, Spain will have a problem. Nowadays Catalunya problem it's huge for Spain, and Spain government didn't do anything about and this is too sad :-(
Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). I'm writing from Bath in the UK where Edgar, the first king of England, was crowned in 973. This united the ancient kingdoms of Wessex, Mercia, East Anglia etc. Thankfully we've become more democratic since then, but until the EU was founded in 1993, Europe was an anar…
You may be surprised, but most people fear a world government. New World Order and all that bullshit. Of course, they ignore the ongoing massive globalization and how it has improved their lives...
> Of course, they ignore the ongoing massive globalization and how it has improved their lives...
I'm not quite sure it improved the life of the 13 year old indian sweatshop worker though...
Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck
#49I have not yet met an analysis that would explain why a huge governmental body to politically rule the entire Europe would be a good thing. Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). Most successful large systems grow organically and with time or are forced into a unified whole by a huge effort at control. And th…
Yeh, that's one of the key things - a United States of Europe is a goal driven by politicians and bureaucrats who are forever grabbing more power for themselves. Some of goals - trade zone, free movement of people etc., may make sense but a European wide army? Europe is a region of huge diversity, it doesn't need to be a single political entity.
> but a European wide army?
I'm German. The stated purpose of the Bundeswehr (German armed forces) is to defend Germany. Historically this has been interpreted as "defend Germany within German borders", lately it has been extended to "defend German interests in remote places like Afghanistan".
The vast majority of deployments the German public is aware of happens either as part of or along side NATO and UN missions. I can't think of any situations where Germany sent troops without any support from other European countries. Nearly every news piece about German military responses to e.g. the Arab Spring goes out of its way to mention the attitude of other countries, especially in Europe but also NATO and the UN.
Yes, a United States of Europe is unlikely to include England (though I can see Scotland being a part of it if they eventually do secede -- unlike England, Scotland has very strong historical ties with Europe and France in particular). But it's a mistake to look at England as representative of general European sentiments.
It's not at all unheard of for political entities within a union not to maintain their own army. Germany was initially created as federation of independent states with their own armies, as was the USA. Even England (not to mention the UK) began as a loose collection of independent states.
Oh, and here's another thing about the German military: throughout the post-WW2 history of Germany there has been a recurring theme of politicians and political interest groups seeking to abolish our military permanently (after all, if it's purely for our defence, we're surrounded by allies these days and don't have any reason to fear invasions). The most frequent counter-argument is simply that we need the military to assist our allies -- note how this has nothing to do with self-defense.
Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
The obvious rebuttal to your first point is that Texas and California share a language. They also share quite a lot of culture. Whether a Texan is more like a Californian, than a German is like an Greek, I leave to the reader to decide. There is one other thing. Identity is hard to impose. Most Americans of my acquaintance hold the US constitution to be a centrally important document. Otherwise they wouldn't argue so…
Diversity need not be a reason for non unification. India for example is so diverse that each state has its own language, food, culture etc..
To be fair, Pakistan did happen.