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A United States of Europe? Good Luck

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Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#31

Post by prodmerc »

tlocke wrote: post #16
fsloth wrote: post #3

I have not yet met an analysis that would explain why a huge governmental body to politically rule the entire Europe would be a good thing. Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). Most successful large systems grow organically and with time or are forced into a unified whole by a huge effort at control. And th…

> Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). I'm writing from Bath in the UK where Edgar, the first king of England, was crowned in 973. This united the ancient kingdoms of Wessex, Mercia, East Anglia etc. Thankfully we've become more democratic since then, but until the EU was founded in 1993, Europe was an anar…

You may be surprised, but most people fear a world government.

New World Order and all that bullshit.

Of course, they ignore the ongoing massive globalization and how it has improved their lives...

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#32

Post by verbin217 »

prodmerc wrote: post #31
tlocke wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). I'm writing from Bath in the UK where Edgar, the first king of England, was crowned in 973. This united the ancient kingdoms of Wessex, Mercia, East Anglia etc. Thankfully we've become more democratic since then, but until the EU was founded in 1993, Europe was an anar…

You may be surprised, but most people fear a world government. New World Order and all that bullshit. Of course, they ignore the ongoing massive globalization and how it has improved their lives...

I know exactly what you're talking about. I'm very pro-globalization. It's an engineering problem and that's the right solution. But I do fear this world order.

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#33

Post by wolfgke »

seren wrote: post #17
netrus wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German here. Could you imagine a Florida army going to war in Afghanistan, while California stays neutral, and Texas sends troops to Mexico? - Why not? People in Texas are quite different from people in California, they have different interests and beliefs. The driving force behind the United States of Europe is that (1) every single country is too small to be influential in the world (and we want to have influence i…

Without all the technocratic apparatus of the European Union involved, the crisis would look a lot worse with countries closing their frontier, blaming their neighbor : it does already happen, but at least, we can talk about it in a kind of civilized manner, which is a much better way to find a solution. In my mind this is obvious a pan European answer is needed. You can not ask Italy and Greece to solve the crisis b…

> You can not ask Italy and Greece to solve the crisis by themselves, when most refugee want to actually go other countries.

If the refugees are persecuted so badly in their own countries (which is a condition for getting asylum), they should be happy for any sufficiently safe country that is willing to give them asylum.

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#34

Post by gizmodo59 »

colinb wrote: post #22
netrus wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German here. Could you imagine a Florida army going to war in Afghanistan, while California stays neutral, and Texas sends troops to Mexico? - Why not? People in Texas are quite different from people in California, they have different interests and beliefs. The driving force behind the United States of Europe is that (1) every single country is too small to be influential in the world (and we want to have influence i…

The obvious rebuttal to your first point is that Texas and California share a language. They also share quite a lot of culture. Whether a Texan is more like a Californian, than a German is like an Greek, I leave to the reader to decide. There is one other thing. Identity is hard to impose. Most Americans of my acquaintance hold the US constitution to be a centrally important document. Otherwise they wouldn't argue so…

Diversity need not be a reason for non unification. India for example is so diverse that each state has its own language, food, culture etc..

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#35

Post by pluma »

a_bonobo wrote: post #4
fsloth wrote: post #3

I have not yet met an analysis that would explain why a huge governmental body to politically rule the entire Europe would be a good thing. Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). Most successful large systems grow organically and with time or are forced into a unified whole by a huge effort at control. And th…

As a counter-example: Germany as a country has a very short history - "pan-germanism" was a movement to unify all German-speaking countries, which included quite a bit of Poland, Austria and Switzerland. There were 39 states in the first German Bund ~1870, there were way more states in the preceding Holy Roman Empire (that one included what's now the Netherlands, Belgium, parts of Italy etc.). These were merged into…

> Prussian who pretended to be a Bavarian who keeps on criticizing Prussians

Dreckspreissen.

The funny thing is that this rivalry with Prussia still exists, except over the centuries the term "Prussia" has become a generic name for all of Germany north of Bavaria.

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#36

Post by rorykoehler »

mrb wrote: post #26
nkuttler wrote: post #10

Nobody I know wants United States of Europe. The European Union is completely undemocratic at it's core, our national leaders have made sure that the electorate has minimal powers and influence over their supranational policing. Sovereignty of the people conflicts with the sovereignty of nations.

Well let me be the first to disagree with you directly. As a French citizen, I WANT a United States of Europe. I strongly believe that a more politically and legally united Europe is likely to improve overall economic circumstances and quality of life of the average European. Yes this means my taxes being set by a European body, relatively richer countries (like mine) helping poorer countries, etc, but all these thin…

As an Irish/German I fully agree with you.

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#37

Post by rorykoehler »

cm2187 wrote: post #11
nkuttler wrote: post #10

Nobody I know wants United States of Europe. The European Union is completely undemocratic at it's core, our national leaders have made sure that the electorate has minimal powers and influence over their supranational policing. Sovereignty of the people conflicts with the sovereignty of nations.

It's only undemocratic because electors do not seem to care who they send to the EU. But MEP are elected, and the officials that are not elected are nominated by elected officials. I think the only viable EU is a United States of Europe, in which the current countries disappear, and you only have a Federal state and what is currently regions in the current countries. Whether a EU is desirable for the UK is another de…

I can't see the UK joining either, which as a non-British European is fine by me. They're only interested in how much profit they can squeeze out of every situation. This kind of insular individualism has no place in a Federal Europe.

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#38

Post by khuey »

grey-area wrote: post #6
fsloth wrote: post #3

I have not yet met an analysis that would explain why a huge governmental body to politically rule the entire Europe would be a good thing. Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). Most successful large systems grow organically and with time or are forced into a unified whole by a huge effort at control. And th…

Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). The Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire, Byzantine Empire, British Empire and the USA spring to mind. All large states/empires are a patchwork of previously autonomous bodies, in fact most nation states are also formed in the same way, though of course they later usually manufa…

China, India, and Italy are also great examples.

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#39

Post by kome »

nkuttler wrote: post #10

Nobody I know wants United States of Europe. The European Union is completely undemocratic at it's core, our national leaders have made sure that the electorate has minimal powers and influence over their supranational policing. Sovereignty of the people conflicts with the sovereignty of nations.

I want a United States of Europe.

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#40

Post by Timmons »

rawTruthHurts wrote: post #23
arethuza wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the UK? We have four components with varying levels of autonomy - Scotland arguably being the most "independent" as we have our legal system, education system and parliament here in Edinburgh. As other poster note - Scotland and England are themselves the result of joining together once independent parts into units that last pretty well - Scotland goes back to the bit 9th century and some of the component…

Hm, I don't think "huge" applies to the UK.

Population UK: 64.1 million Population US: 318.9 million

So that is 1/5th the population of a near continental sized country. The UK may not be big but it is dense (Admittedly not as dense as some Asian countries).

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