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How to Manufacture a Climate Consensus

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Re: How to Manufacture a Climate Consensus

#41
post #36

I was thinking about this the other day: what _is_ the best scientific statement we can make, at present, about anthropogenic global warming? On one hand, we have theory. There's reasonably good theoretical reasons to expect that increasing carbon dioxide should increase global temperatures. However, every good scientist knows not to trust theory too much until it's been verified by experiment, especially when the sy…

> I was thinking about this the other day: what _is_ the best scientific statement we can make, at present, about anthropogenic global warming?

Here's what it seems like:

1. The Earth is warming at a slow rate, but at least some of this is natural as temperatures were historically considerably higher, then considerably lower than now.

2. We're still well within the bounds of normal, habitable historical temperatures.

3. Warming definitely occurs at local levels with deforesting, mining, and urbanization. This can decrease condensation and make areas less habitable to life. This can be stabilized to a large extent by planting trees, restoring soil quality, and so on.

4. Carbon dioxide currently makes up 0.3% of the greenhouse gases including water vapor, and about 5% of the non-water vapor greenhouse gases. Carbon dioxide increases are lagging temperature increases - suggesting that CO2 is not the biggest culprit of global warming.

5. That said, fossil fuels will gradually be replaced - the two current biggest hurdles are battery quality and political/public fears about nuclear power. Nuclear has gotten incredibly more stable and safe, and the advent of thorium reactors is exciting. Innovations in batteries and transitions to next generation nuclear will reduce fossil fuels a lot.

6. Much of green technology isn't so green - in many areas, turbines and solar panels take enough energy to create that they won't "pay back" their energy cost within 50 years, at which point we'll likely be able to produce energy much cheaper anyways. Some areas are very well suited for green energy - deserts with solar, very windy areas with turbines, hydroelectric on rivers, but they're brute forcing some very Earth-unfriendly alternative energy into areas it's not well suited for. Much of what's called green is marketing.

Personal judgment call based on everything I've seen? Money into R&D for hydrogen power, better batteries, fusion, and safer next-gen nuclear probably goes a lot further towards cleaning up the Earth than the current proposed solutions. Fossil fuels seem like they're going to largely be obsolete within 100-150 years or sooner, and rumors of the Earth's imminent demise appear to be greatly exaggerated.

Re: How to Manufacture a Climate Consensus

#42
post #36

I was thinking about this the other day: what _is_ the best scientific statement we can make, at present, about anthropogenic global warming? On one hand, we have theory. There's reasonably good theoretical reasons to expect that increasing carbon dioxide should increase global temperatures. However, every good scientist knows not to trust theory too much until it's been verified by experiment, especially when the sy…

Isn't the answer to your question what you find in:

IPCC Fourth Assessment Report, Working Group I Report: "The Physical Science Basis" ?

Re: How to Manufacture a Climate Consensus

#43
post #6

Should I overlook the fact this guy is employed by The Cato Institute, which is funded by big oil?

No, but also don't miss the fact that most of those on the other side are funded by big government. Neither side is neutral.

Here's what I don't understand about the nobody's neutral point. Sure nobody's absolutely neutral (just like nobody's is absolutely truthful). It's all relative, but who's more neutral seems to be what they have to gain. Who benefits more by being right? If big oil is right then they get to carry on using fossil fuels until we run out. By some estimates there's still several trillion dollars of oil, coal, etc in the ground yet to be extracted.

If global warming advocates are right what do they get? Gold star, notoriety for being great scientists, pat on the back and a gold watch? Even billions of dollars in research grants? Once they're right research money dries up, and you still have to fix the energy crisis that would ensue. And, big oil is handing out money left and right for any study saying the opposite. If funding were your only incentive you could just as easily get money from the other side. If you can prove global warming is or IS NOT caused by human activity you'll be very very famous, maybe rich.

Still that's paltry in comparison to the revenue of the oil, coal, and to some degree gas industries. I can't seem to make the the pay offs for being right equal out.

I like to not be so paranoid, but quite frankly this whole debate just seems like a smoke screen from both sides at the moment. Which could be yet another tactic since status quo benefits the CO2 producers.

Re: How to Manufacture a Climate Consensus

#44
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France generates the majority of their power from nuclear power stations, but it is certainly not the "biggest reason" the EU's CO2 emissions are half of the US's.

Of course there are other reasons. The United states is more affluent which means that more people will drive cars. The USA also has a lower population density which means that CO2 caused by transportation would be lower. Many countries (such as Germany and some Eastern European countries) use natural gas in electricity generation in some places. This has lower carbon emissions, yet is substantially more expensive. I…

Aluminum Smelting is actually one of the main industries in Iceland due to cheep electricity costs which are below below US, Europe, and China. At the same time Iceland's renewable energy industry provides over 70% of all the nation's primary energy and 99.9% of Iceland's electricity being generated from renewables. Iceland has explored the feasibility of exporting hydroelectric energy via submarine cable to mainland Europe and also actively seeks to expand its power-intensive industries, including aluminium and ferro-silicon smelting plants. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Iceland

Re: How to Manufacture a Climate Consensus

#45
post #36

I was thinking about this the other day: what _is_ the best scientific statement we can make, at present, about anthropogenic global warming? On one hand, we have theory. There's reasonably good theoretical reasons to expect that increasing carbon dioxide should increase global temperatures. However, every good scientist knows not to trust theory too much until it's been verified by experiment, especially when the sy…

> I was thinking about this the other day: what _is_ the best scientific statement we can make, at present, about anthropogenic global warming? Here's what it seems like: 1. The Earth is warming at a slow rate, but at least some of this is natural as temperatures were historically considerably higher, then considerably lower than now. 2. We're still well within the bounds of normal, habitable historical temperatures.…

As you say, much of your points are personal judgments. I do want to respond to some that aren't:

"2. We're still well within the bounds of normal, habitable historical temperatures."

This is a severe oversimplification, IMHO. Human society is sensitive not just to whether the Earth is overall habitable, but to impacts to the significant "sunk costs" we have in the locations of population centers. It's not much comfort to the people of California if the Earth remains habitable on average when the Sierra snowmelt disappears and the state faces a drought of unprecedented proportions.

"4. Carbon dioxide currently makes up 0.3% of the greenhouse gases including water vapor, and about 5% of the non-water vapor greenhouse gases. Carbon dioxide increases are lagging temperature increases - suggesting that CO2 is not the biggest culprit of global warming."

Where do you get that CO2 is 0.3% of greenhouse gases? It's true that water vapor is the largest contributor to the greenhouse effect, but CO2 is next. It accounts for 50% of the non-water greenhouse gases and for way more than 0.3% of the total greenhouse effect. Besides, counting water is a little spurious because the water content of the atmosphere is set by the temperature. Thus, if temperature goes up, water content goes up. So saying that CO2 doesn't matter because water vapor is much more important is wrong, it's precisely the opposite. CO2 matters more because its effect is amplified by water. (Barring controversies about cloud covers.)

CO2 is also the greenhouse gas that has the longest lifetime in the atmosphere. The others (methane, etc) break down a lot quicker.

Re: How to Manufacture a Climate Consensus

#46
post #2

This is a pretty powerful article. Regardless of your thoughts on global warming, it's rather upsetting to see scientists' careers ruined through having opinions differing than the gatekeepers of the peer reviewing system.

This isn't a particularly powerful or insightful article. The entire subject is blown out of proportion and distorted until hardly any of the actual facts remain. 1. Scientists ruin their careers by repeatedly attempting to discredit theories they cannot find the evidence to discredit (or proving claims they cannot find proof to claim). If a truly compelling set of studies discrediting global warming trends came out,…

Science is NOT about consensus. "Scientists" have no monopoly on truth. Science is about facts. Observation. Falsifiable, objective, and independently reproducible theories. They either produce predictions that match reality or they don't. It doesn't matter if the scientific establishment believes or disbelieves in the hall effect, or special relativity, or high temperature superconductivity. They are either real or not independent of the opinion of the majority of scientists.

One hopes that the scientific community is sufficiently objective and disciplined to embrace true science when they see it, but that may not be (and has not been) the case always.

Consensus should follow science but consensus cannot create science.

Re: How to Manufacture a Climate Consensus

#47
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France generates the majority of their power from nuclear power stations, but it is certainly not the "biggest reason" the EU's CO2 emissions are half of the US's.

Of course there are other reasons. The United states is more affluent which means that more people will drive cars. The USA also has a lower population density which means that CO2 caused by transportation would be lower. Many countries (such as Germany and some Eastern European countries) use natural gas in electricity generation in some places. This has lower carbon emissions, yet is substantially more expensive. I…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dio...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nom...

Re: How to Manufacture a Climate Consensus

#48

Why is this occurring now? If this type of behavior was going on then it sounds like there were a number of scientists that could have spoken out about this long ago? Especially when the "hockey stick" paper came out if it was questionable. Why did it take a mysterious "hacker" to reveal this bias? If all the scientists at the CRU are being unfairly treated why didn't Sallie Baliunas pull a Zed Shaw when she left sci…

Seriously?! I get modded down for asking a serious question? WTF? And, the response I get is basically "well you weren't paying attention. Anyone with half a brain knew this." Really?

Just the hummer joke alone should garner something. Sweet baby jeez no sense of humor.

Re: How to Manufacture a Climate Consensus

#49
post #2

This is a pretty powerful article. Regardless of your thoughts on global warming, it's rather upsetting to see scientists' careers ruined through having opinions differing than the gatekeepers of the peer reviewing system.

This isn't a particularly powerful or insightful article. The entire subject is blown out of proportion and distorted until hardly any of the actual facts remain. 1. Scientists ruin their careers by repeatedly attempting to discredit theories they cannot find the evidence to discredit (or proving claims they cannot find proof to claim). If a truly compelling set of studies discrediting global warming trends came out,…

> Consider the exorbitant cost of the LHC, which is one of the single greatest achievements of human engineering and physics.

And also two orders of magnitude less expensive than proposed global warming solutions:

http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2008-09/defense-lhc http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05...

Re: How to Manufacture a Climate Consensus

#50
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was thinking about this the other day: what _is_ the best scientific statement we can make, at present, about anthropogenic global warming? Here's what it seems like: 1. The Earth is warming at a slow rate, but at least some of this is natural as temperatures were historically considerably higher, then considerably lower than now. 2. We're still well within the bounds of normal, habitable historical temperatures.…

As you say, much of your points are personal judgments. I do want to respond to some that aren't: "2. We're still well within the bounds of normal, habitable historical temperatures." This is a severe oversimplification, IMHO. Human society is sensitive not just to whether the Earth is overall habitable, but to impacts to the significant "sunk costs" we have in the locations of population centers. It's not much comfo…

> It's not much comfort to the people of California if the Earth remains habitable on average when the Sierra snowmelt disappears and the state faces a drought of unprecedented proportions.

It's a really long discussion, but our ability to locally adapt to climate change is actually quite good and improving regularly. Temperatures are rising really, really slowly - you can get the 2-3 degrees per 100 years back by planting trees and irrigating. Desalination has come along incredibly fast too. I can go into greater detail if you have specific questions, I know a fair bit about this stuff.

> Where do you get that CO2 is 0.3% of greenhouse gases?

"Carbon dioxide (chemical formula CO2) is a chemical compound composed of two oxygen atoms covalently bonded to a single carbon atom. It is a gas at standard temperature and pressure and exists in Earth's atmosphere in this state. CO2 is a trace gas being only 0.038% of the atmosphere."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide

I think a lot of people forget that CO2 is naturally occurring and necessary for life.

Also of note:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPCC_list_of_greenhouse_gases

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas#Greenhouse_effec...

Wikipedia has CO2 accounting for between 9% and 26% of the greenhouse effect, the citation was from the American Meteorological Society.

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