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Talking About Money

kalzumeus.com

391–400 of 412 posts

Re: Talking About Money

#391
post #345

Hmm. We just ask people how much they want to make and give them as much time as they need to respond. If it's higher than we can pay, then we say sorry we can't pay that. If it's way lower than we would expect we usually tell them that we wouldn't expect to pay less than X for their skills and experience. This has worked great so far because if someone came back with a really low number and we just took it, then a m…

On the other hand, when someone states much more than you can afford - don't you think to just pass on this candidate, because she might feel unhappy even if she accepts the offer? Also, to follow Patrick's advice - if someone doesn't give the answer but instead asks the same question to you - "what's the budget/range for this role? ", do you answer honestly?

For the first question, no. That has happened twice and they both seemed upset but weren't going to budge.

As for the second question, yes I always say what our budget is if asked.

Re: Talking About Money

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting response. Loathe recuiters? Let's take it easy on the echo chamber cliche here. Yeah, lots of bad apples out there, but ask any reasonable professional: a good recruiter is extremely valuable. You did forget that there are 2 types of recruiters: agency (outside) and corporate (inside). I, the agency recruiter, do not want to "dislodge" the candidate for the minimum amount required. Not because my fee will…

> Interesting response. Loathe recuiters? Let's take it easy on the echo chamber cliche here. That's my personal opinion based on personal experience. Feel free to attribute it to others but the echo chamber does not factor in there unless you wish to consider my office part of the echo chamber. > Yeah, lots of bad apples out there, Present company, as always, excluded. > but ask any reasonable professional: a good r…

First, I already addressed the main salary point in my original post. I don't need to respond to every random who wants to poke holes. I will address a couple issues you brought up in your reply. Just like I don't presume I know more about software engineering than my candidates, I trust you'll defer to someone who knows recruiting.

--I've yet to see 'reverse headhunting' where you submit your resume to a recruiter and they then go out to find the best possible position for you.

Yeah, this exists - they're "agents" for software engineers (for example). But it's rare and not sustainable.

---In the long term your loyalty has to lie with your repeat customer, the corporation that hires you. Since you are not going to get any repeat business from the individuals that you've placed (unless you're willing to risk that long term relationship, but there are plenty of other recruiters that will be more than happy to play the game again).

You forgot one thing: reputation. If you do best by your client AND candidate, then your candidate sends your referrals, eventually comes to you when he/she becomes a hiring manager, etc.

---I don't particularly care about what you call it, to me it felt more like interacting with a class of buzz-word wielding vultures trying to make money from placing people based on an extremely limited understanding of what makes the tech world tick.

I've heard this before, usually from less level-headed software engineers. Like I said, sales is a different business - we do different things than you guys. I have repeatedly watched as techies have tried and failed to transition into recruiting. There is an extremely low correlation between tech savvy & recruiting success. Recruiting is a people business.

The underlying theme here, again, is that you're lumping every recruiter into your personal bad experiences - like I already said, some are good. That's not a valid approach in this situation.

Re: Talking About Money

#393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> But a typical CEO worth his salt will crush something silly like that in no-time, if you really want to hire good people this is the type of person you want to fire That is actually not true. This kind of employee low balling is condoned behavior. I applied for a position at Automattic and had Matt Mullenweg (CEO) pull this on me. Everything seemed to have gone perfectly well - everyone involved in the process see…

Been thinking about this more and the only possible context I could imagine, related to the original post, could be around salary. We base compensation on market data, value to the company, and what other people in a similar role make, we also ask what people made in the past and where they hope to be in the future. This does not determine their salary, it's market data for us, and the future part also makes sure tha…

I've read both of these comments, and I really struggle to see how both of the following can be true:

1. As a hiring manager, knowing your previous salary will not impact my decision on your value. 2. As a hiring manager, I insist on knowing your previous salary. If you do not want to discuss it, you must not trust us.

Re: Talking About Money

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree it can be uncomfortable for people, as is almost everything around compensation. I don't think we're entitled to know, but it is an expression of trust when someone shares it, and thus far with ~99% of people we've hired over 10 years it hasn't been an issue.

Why should people express trust in you by deliberately sacrificing information relevant to their own interests before you've proven yourself trustworthy?

As the adage goes... trust is earned, not given. I would not divulge my current/previous salary either.

Re: Talking About Money

#395
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was addressing the bluff question. Further down in the comments, I address your point - note: I mostly agree with you.

They shouldn't ask the question much less demand an answer threatening to close communication if the demand is not met. If they do so, they are clearly not somewhere you want to work.

Related article: http://jacquesmattheij.com/do-not-disclose-your-salary-to-re...

Discussion on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/34q8cl/do_not_...

Re: Talking About Money

#396
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: if you value equity at 0, then ( ceteris paribus ) given a choice between (1) an offer at $150,000 and 50 basis points and (2) an offer at $150,100 and 0 basis points, you should choose option (2). Given that: why should any employer offer equity?

Why do people play the lottery?

Because they're bad at math?

Re: Talking About Money

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to relative value, equity has other benefits. It increases the "One team" spirit, where everyone rises and falls together. It also puts in a sense of fairness. If the firm thrives, it's not just the CEO and VCs who get rich. There are downsides (lack of control of share price, and some freeloading) but for startups it's a great tool. The effectiveness shrinks a bit for large firms.

The effects you describe are probably specific to the individual. Having worked for several companies from tiny startups to gigantic megaliths, I can tell you that I never felt any of those things regardless of my equity package. I may be cynical, you may be naive, or both. Companies succeed by being in the right place at the right time, being lucky, having good connections, and having leaders who make the right deci…

On the last point, it's about fairness in the other direction.

If an organization like Youtube/PickYourUnicorn sells for a billion plus dollars with only a small handful of employees, all of which are talented and have put in long hours, would it be fair for only the VCs and founders to see the upside?

In a sense I view equity as a shared call option.

Re: Talking About Money

#398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should people express trust in you by deliberately sacrificing information relevant to their own interests before you've proven yourself trustworthy?

As the adage goes... trust is earned, not given. I would not divulge my current/previous salary either.

Well actually, one usually builds trust by giving it in small pieces, showing that you're willing and able to develop a relationship with the other person. But the key word there is small: you don't place yourself at a large disadvantage until the other person has shown themselves to be trustworthy in previous instances where less was at stake.

Re: Talking About Money

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Been thinking about this more and the only possible context I could imagine, related to the original post, could be around salary. We base compensation on market data, value to the company, and what other people in a similar role make, we also ask what people made in the past and where they hope to be in the future. This does not determine their salary, it's market data for us, and the future part also makes sure tha…

I've read both of these comments, and I really struggle to see how both of the following can be true: 1. As a hiring manager, knowing your previous salary will not impact my decision on your value. 2. As a hiring manager, I insist on knowing your previous salary. If you do not want to discuss it, you must not trust us.

I'm going to assume matt is lying unless he will release comp data for his offers vs what the candidates' reported salaries. he is on here doing 100% damage control.

Re: Talking About Money

#400
post #87
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the firm that I work at everything is in the open, even between groups, and it works very well. It is a formula-based compensation given your department (basically consultants and back-office) and stated level. With that, I know or can calculate exactly how much my manager makes, how much an entry level HR employee makes, and how much the CEO makes. I love it because it removes any problem with politics or shadowy…

That's enlightening and encouraging. A formula-based/matrix approach might make it more acceptable because it isn't personal. One thing I haven't seen is how to handle COLA. I'm sure that can also be added as an additional factor, though.

(Late to the reply, sorry.) COLA is addressed on a per office basis. Our headquarters is in a relatively inexpensive large city, and so other offices in pricier places like SF or DC get a blanket COLA adjustment, with the percentage bump based on some particular survey's index or something.
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