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Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

paolino.me

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Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#391

Post by paulsutter »

Zak wrote: post #335
rayiner wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite. In the US this condition is handled at the back end. Running a corporation or LLC without sufficient capitalization can be grounds for piercing the liability shield in a lawsuit.

I have the impression the situations where that actually happens are at least arguably serious misconduct, and usually targeted at someone with significant assets. A construction company that pockets ten million dollars and doesn't build anything probably can't shield its owner this way, but a single-developer software consultancy that pockets ten thousand dollars and delivers buggy code can.

While extreme cases are the easiest to imagine, in real life the plaintiff almost always argues to pierce the veil and the defendant always argues the opposite, and both sides earnestly believe that they are right.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#392

Post by [deleted] »

rayiner wrote: post #339
Zak wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the impression the situations where that actually happens are at least arguably serious misconduct, and usually targeted at someone with significant assets. A construction company that pockets ten million dollars and doesn't build anything probably can't shield its owner this way, but a single-developer software consultancy that pockets ten thousand dollars and delivers buggy code can.

In theory it’s based on whether the owner of the company intended to run it under capitalized in an effort to shirk liability.

[deleted]

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#394

Post by dgellow »

NooneAtAll3 wrote: post #258
nradov wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But is it really you?

that's an interesting question how much would it cost to pay someone "1 hour away by train" to go into that office for you?

With a fake ID? That becomes pretty expensive

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#395

Post by notpushkin »

solatic wrote: post #320
rob74 wrote: post #165

> Which leaves the only real question. Why 25,000 at all? It is my company and my risk. If I want to start with nothing, that is my call, not a toll the state collects before it will let me try. And the cheap door has a price of its own: to some clients, “UG” reads as “not serious,” and they would rather deal with a GmbH. The structure built to let me in quietly marks me for using it. The 25,000 is there to make sure…

This is not an argument that founders should seed 25k EUR to cover liability, it's an argument that GmbH bank account amounts should be visible publicly. If I want to put in a catering order, the catering business does not need 25k EUR to cover liability. If I want to build a data center, 25k EUR is not nearly enough.

> GmbH bank account amounts should be visible publicly

Not sure about Germany, but e.g. in Estonia it’s essentially public info (albeit unaudited, usually), as part of the annual report. The company has to maintain at least the declared capital amount in their bank accounts (or other assets), but the amount can be pretty much any number, so the business owner can decide what sum makes sense in their case.

25k € is way too much for most small businesses, yeah.

(IANAL)

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#397

Post by jeroenhd »

NooneAtAll3 wrote: post #258
nradov wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But is it really you?

that's an interesting question how much would it cost to pay someone "1 hour away by train" to go into that office for you?

Sometimes criminals do put pressure on people to register companies in their name and show up to these meetings. Whether that's addicts, people with mental disabilities, or young people looking for a quick buck, the fraud mechanism is the same.

However, that does put the company in their name. On paper, they have full control over it. That's a risk to the criminals trying to use the company as a financial asset for laundering money.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#398

Post by ExpertAdvisor01 »

fakedang wrote: post #378
ExpertAdvisor01 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What should the US LLC do ? It will end up being treated like a GMBH in Germany (keyword : Typenvergleich ) and you will have to do all the bureaucracy in the us + Germany and end up paying the same taxes

The point I thought was a plus was that you'd be paying German taxes without all the German bureaucracy? Because there's definitely no bureaucracy for a Wyoming LLC except for a couple of IRS forms annually.

Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. You are just adding us bureaucracy+ dual accounting (euro/USD) to German bureaucracy where nothing changes .

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#399

Post by sandcat_ »

keiferski wrote: post #293
_fat_santa wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US system is built to support entrepreneurship while the EU system broadly is to support the consumer and employee. The US will never be able to match the EU's consumer and employee protections and the EU will never be able to match the US's ease of doing business, because to have one you have to fundamentally give in on the other. Depending on who you ask, one system is wildly better than the other, but at the e…

I think this is a false dichotomy. Consumer return policies, customer service, etc. tend to be much better in the US than in the EU. I would characterize it rather that the US is pro-business and pro-consumer, but somewhat anti-average worker.

That’s not true. From mandatory refunds when selling online, to capped credit card fees, to longer warranties, the EU is clearly better for consumer rights. Some US businesses have realized that openly screwing your customers isn’t good business practice, but they’re somewhat of the exception I hear (and a lot of those companies offer the same policies, or better, in the EU, e.g. Costco)

Apple is another good example. Their base warranty is two years in the EU versus one year in the US, and there’s additional protection on top in many EU countries that extends it to the expected life of the product, in some cases as long as 5-6 years.

And again, all of these are backed up by the law, not just a policy that the company can revoke or decide not to enforce.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#400

Post by dgellow »

earcar wrote: post #48
VadimPR wrote: post #8

Before Europe gets lumped in as one country, founding a company in Netherlands and Sweden, speaking from personal experience, is a breeze. Although Sweden is a bit strange in the fact that banks have as much equal say as the government authority does in you starting a company, and if they don't want you as a customer, they can simply deny the right for your company to start!

That is refreshing to hear. Unfortunately I can't get out because of exit tax, an unrealized capital gains tax for the privilege of leaving the country. That is way worse than what I mention in this post and will get its own post soon.

Is it different from the tax you would face if you just realize your gains?
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