Live data from Hacker News

Bill to block publishers from killing online games advances in California

arstechnica.com

391–400 of 506 posts

Re: Bill to block publishers from killing online games advances in California

#391

I'm on the treadmill so this may appear jumbled. Bought PGA Tour 2k21 for $50. In October the servers shut down completely neutering the game. I think you're allowed to play a few courses still. But the career mode, which is why I originally bought the game, was completely turned off. Mind you that career mode had zero Internet needed features. It's like a sports franchise mode. So good on this bill. 2K should rot fo…

But you knew exactly what you were buying. It’s not hidden to you that an internet connection is required when you buy the game. Game developers are generally pretty terrible and do a lot of really shady things to extract value from their players. But that one isn’t one. The terms are clearly stated before your purchase

If the TOS said the game would be destroyed in 5 years I would not have made the purchase. You're making my point. Why didn't the TOS tell me the plan?

Re: Bill to block publishers from killing online games advances in California

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you knew exactly what you were buying. It’s not hidden to you that an internet connection is required when you buy the game. Game developers are generally pretty terrible and do a lot of really shady things to extract value from their players. But that one isn’t one. The terms are clearly stated before your purchase

I’d debate that there are “clearly stated terms” when the result is completely unpredictable, will it work for 10 years or 3 hours? Reading the terms you have no idea. The original sin is selling a product that has an ongoing cost for a fixed price without creating an ongoing trust to pay those costs. Imagine I had a gas station that sold all you can use gasoline for a car for 4k. Then I sell a bunch of memberships a…

I'll just play Civ 4 Beyond the Sword forever. Or whatever is available on the Internet archive.

Re: Bill to block publishers from killing online games advances in California

#393
post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So do games just have to have a perpetual endowment to fund any shared component costs? This seems like a logical conclusion. They don't need to keep services running perpetually. strags's objection seemed to be that it could be infeasible to release services like authentication that they're still running, to which I'm saying they don't really need to consider any of this until they stop running it. > You may bemoa…

"If I sell you a lawnmower that depends on some authentication server to start up, then shut down the server the next day (I got your money, why would I keep the cost?), and don't release the server code or a patch to work without it, then would you not say I've scammed you?" A lawnmower isn't a piece of software. It's not licensed. There's an expectation it should continue working. The lawnmower is a single player g…

> A lawnmower isn't a piece of software. It's not licensed. There's an expectation it should continue working.

I believe we should be able to have the same expectation of software, at least where not specifically sold as "X months of access".

> If I sell you an IoT lawnmower, and you get 20 years out of it, do I owe you a full refund if I shut down my server?

Ideally, to avoid unnecessary e-waste, you should patch out the requirement or release the server-side code so I can continue using my lawnmower. Buying it off me might also work, if you're offering approximately what I'd get out of having it continue to work, but I'm not sure if that scales well.

> I don't think all the patches are small costs when you factor in licensing

If bills like this pass, middleware providers would need to license under terms that allow distribution at end-of-life, or lose out on all customers selling software in California/EU/etc. Should also help clear obstacles for developers who already want to distribute their server/source code even before this law but are held back from doing so.

> Mandating you need to put out a patch creates a legal obligation that would sit on your books

There's no issue with creating the patch/releasing the server-side software early, just that I assume they'd want to maintain exclusivity to milk profit for as long as possible.

> It was an externality that made consumers sad, not one making products more expensive

If you expend resources to create some media/software/product, then brick that product while customers would've otherwise still extracted value in excess of the patch's resource cost (developer time, not licensing price), then you're on net wasting resources and thus making products in general more expensive.

Issue is that because the cost of patch is borne by the company, whereas they get to ignore the cost to the customers of bricking the products, the latter is often preferred even though it's typically the more expensive option by a significant margin. A bill like this should fix that.

> I think it's a slippery slope to turn that entitlement onto multiplayer games; if not that, then why not all software that you buy?

I believe it should, and that for a lot of software the case is even stronger.

> Everyone should get a full refund when any software EoL's and companies go bankrupt whenever an online product stops being profitable.

If you take someone's money to buy a CAD package, then no longer want to provide some service it relies on (usually just for authentication reasons), then you should release the server software or patch out the authentication check.

> We didn't give HP the option "make your competitors ink work on your printer, give full refunds, support indefinitely, or open up your ink manufacturing line blueprints"

I'd 100% support doing that!

Re: Bill to block publishers from killing online games advances in California

#394
I appreciate the sentiment, but this law looks counter-productive if I'm reading it right. This is OBVIOUSLY going to push companies to make games into a subscription service to bypass the law even if they wouldn't have normally:

> (b) This section does not apply to any of the following:

> (1) Any subscription-based service that advertises or offers for sale access to any digital game solely for the duration of the subscription.

This exemption NEEDS to be removed. If a game's official servers are taken down, the community needs to be given the ability to keep running it themselves. Full stop. No exceptions.

Re: Bill to block publishers from killing online games advances in California

#395
post #196

> the act would not apply to completely free games and games offered “solely for the duration of [a] subscription. Any other game offered for sale in California on or Well, I predict we'll start seeing more games offered "solely for the duration of a subscription". And also games spun out into their own subsidiary that will just go bankrupt and not comply.

If it's a subsidiary - they can't capitalize on the big name in marketing. If it's a subscription - they don't get the "buy now, play never" customers from Steam. I think it will be a win regardless.

Re: Bill to block publishers from killing online games advances in California

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> open source server code if you are going to cease support When I was a senior exec at a big public tech company, there was a product we decided to discontinue and we thought would be nice to just open source. Somehow I ended up in charge of managing that process and was shocked at how complex, time-consuming and expensive it was in a multi-billion dollar, publicly-traded corp vs some code my friends and I wrote. Le…

That’s exactly the benefit of a law - it’s a forcing measure to require businesses to invest in processes to understand open sourcing, and to go forward when otherwise no one would make a business case for approval.

Seems like it would it would put smaller developers in a bind / limit what games even bother with server side systems.

Re: Bill to block publishers from killing online games advances in California

#397
post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know where you’re from but in the UK, consumer protection law sets requirements that your goods last a reasonable length of time. Under your logic, a TV manufacturer could have their TV self destruct after 3 months and you’d be fine with it? Governments should do nothing because “it’s just TV, you can get another.”

If my TV costed $50 and I got 3 months out of it, I'd be like, "yeah, that's about right". We don't expect investments that low to last a generation. Just because you bought a game 5 years after release and then it shutdown 3 months later, doesn't mean it's a scam anymore than coming across an old DVD years after creation and finding that it either doesn't play media or plays it distorted.

When the game was released is irrelevant. I assure you that you’d be pretty pissed if you paid £50 for a TV and it stopped working after only three months. You can claim otherwise but I’ll call you a lying bullshitter.

> coming across an old DVD years after creation

This isn’t remotely the same thing so I don’t know why you brought it up

Re: Bill to block publishers from killing online games advances in California

#398
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I play SubSpace (a MMO spaceship game released in the 90s) to this day. It was shut down soon after release. The original server binaries were left on the original CDROM by a programmer. Then PriitK, a creator of Kazaa and then Skype and Joost!, went on to re-create the client due to cheating/hacking, naming it Continuum. Years later the server is reimplemented as A Small Subspace Server (ASSS), making it a complete…

Props for bringing up Subspace! What a fun game that deserves more players! (And a new client ui)

Thanks, it does. I've been playing since about 2000, came from Cosmic Rift / Infantry when they went non-free.

We're lucky we got Priit to release the encryption/security module so Continuum clients could connect to ASSS servers without the security warning. I doubt it'll ever be updated, someone will have to take up the mantle.

Re: Bill to block publishers from killing online games advances in California

#399
post #383
post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Legal had to verify that there was no licensed library code used Your company did not tracked libraries licenses in the first place?

Consider that there might be a difference between knowing which licensed libraries you used and verifying that your usage of them fully complied with the current license terms when releasing the source code. For example, licensing a library for binary distribution might not cover releasing a copy of a header file, modified copy of something you got from support before a bug fix made it into a release, some random uti…

This is a non problem. We use libraries with standard licenses and there is finite set of them - like 4. And I work on fairly large software.

If your company has issue achieving this, then it was simply not complying with those licenses.

You can go through all licenses just by checking their list in maven. None of that is hard or expensive.

Re: Bill to block publishers from killing online games advances in California

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Minecraft's offline mode not work indefinitely? I'm not familiar with the official launcher but this article [1] doesn't say anything about needing to reconnect occasionally. [1] https://www.practical-tips.com/games/play-minecraft-offline-...

> First, you need to make sure Minecraft is installed on your device. Once this is complete, log in to the launcher while you are still online. This will save your login details for offline access. It still requires an initial authentication.

A connection to Microsoft's servers will also be required to download the game in the first place, so I'm not sure this is really a problem (for compliance with the bill). I think the official launcher won't even let you download the game without authenticating first, but I'm not sure.
Post reply on HN