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America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

cnn.com

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Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#391

Post by somenameforme »

nicoburns wrote: post #330
portaouflop wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which very highly paid job does not command respect in society? I can’t think of any (Outside of anti-capitalist circles ofc)

> Which very highly paid job does not command respect in society? Banking? Sales? > Outside of anti-capitalist circles ofc Well that's quite the point. Maybe those circles are small in the US, but they aren't in most of the rest of the world. Let me just say that if I called my parents and told them that I had gotten a well-paid job at, say, a hedge fund, they would not be impressed and would likely think less of me…

One doesn't need to be anti-capitalist to dislike bankers, salespeople, or many other similar careers. They, in many cases at least, rely on information inequalities to deceive and rip off people. I love capitalism, but I loathe sketchy behavior done in the pursuit of money. They are two very different things.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#392

Post by acdha »

CYR1X wrote: post #157
stevenwoo wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number that I've heard that accepted that offer across the government is in line with normal attrition rates with federal employees - the only people who bit were already planning on quitting. It appears that most or all else was wise to how shady this deal was.

Part all of this BS is sure at twitter if you pull this you might get a decent attrition rate but isn't the federal government known for people never quitting? If they quit, it's quiet quitting coming in every day and doing nothing. Isn't that generally the purpose behind this too? Like...good luck get a real amount of people to quit they are going to hold on for dear life

> they quit, it's quiet quitting coming in every day and doing nothing

You think air traffic controllers are “doing nothing”? What VA staff, park rangers, food inspectors, etc.? I realize this stereotype is something a lot of people spend money reinforcing but you should consider why you believe it to be true of a nationwide group doing a huge range of jobs and what evidence that’s based on.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#393

Post by RandomBacon »

nradov wrote: post #291
pbalau wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a naive way of looking at the problem. People that start working in banks, generally do that as a starting point. ATC is the end of the road for that career. Working in a bank is the start of a quite lucrative career, working as an ATC is the end. Indeed, we can offer more money to ATC, but there is not a lot, progression wise. Honestly, how would a junior ATC look like, compared with a senior?

ATC salary increases with experience. The better ones are promoted to supervisors.

Hahahahahaha....

ATC here, opinons are my own and not necessarily (definitely not in this case) that of the FAA.

Thank you for the laugh.

Out of the 10 supervisors I've had, one was amazing, one was average, and one I attended the funeral of after he drunk himself to death.

ATC salary only increases with the sub-inflation 2% or whatever presidential raise and 1.6% union-negotiated raise, each year.

No one is promoted, they have to apply, and the good controllers don't apply because if they hate it and go back to controlling, they lose their seniority (this is the union's rule). The bad controllers apply to be supervisors so they don't have to really control (they do the minimum 16 hours a month on a empty sector in the morning). Maybe this is a feature - a way to get bad controllers away from traffic.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#394

Post by brandonmenc »

wbl wrote: post #345
brandonmenc wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ICE wasn't created until 2003, so no one.

Good point, but there was an agency tasked with security.

True, and I’m sorry for the snarky reply even though I knew what you meant.

But regardless of if this was the fault of Reagan or the largely Democratic-controlled Congress, Republicans in government since then have soured on any idea giving an ounce of amnesty because of it.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#395

Post by whycome »

bobthepanda wrote: post #249
dickfickling wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't sound like GP is saying we have to do away with audio, just that it's absurd to stick to _just_ audio. Great to have a screen that shows "Clear for option 25R etc etc". I think I saw the latest Cirrus planes have something like that, doing live transcription of tower/ATC calls. EDIT: I will add I get that adding something like that to a general aviation cockpit is much easier than putting it on a commercia…

it isn't really just audio though. The pilot is staring at things while talking, and there are automated systems like TCAS that provide alarms and visual indications as well. And a lot of commercial airliners have HUDs. If anything, the helicopter needed more avoidance technology from the sounds of it. And that has more to do with the lack of integration the military does with civilian systems.

This was a perfect example where audio fell short. The ATC couldn't know if the heli was referencing the same aircraft. Some sort of digital display + highlighting would fit here.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#396

Post by amluto »

XCabbage wrote: post #164
legitster wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When Mr Brigida tried again to become an air traffic controller under the new tests, he said he failed the biographical questionnaire because he “didn’t fit the preferred ethnic profile”. This dude leading the lawsuit is incredibly unreliable. The ATC biographical assessment didn't have any race-based questions - it was just a decision making questionnaire: https://123atc.com/biographical-assessment It was a questi…

Indeed, it didn't have race-based questions, which I don't think anyone claimed. Rather it had totally arbitrary questions, not related to merit in any plausible way, and a score cutoff that made it highly likely you'd fail if you hadn't been tipped off with the correct answers. For instance, there is a 15-point question for which you have to answer that your worst grade in high school was in Science, and a separate…

I’m amazed that no one seems to have been indicted. Was this not fraud?

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#397

Post by RandomBacon »

VincentEvans wrote: post #358
l2edline wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an air traffic controller at a core 30 airport and I firmly believe that many but not all of the issues we face can be fixed by increasing compensation. Namely mandatory 6 day work weeks, high attrition, and burnout.

Maybe occasional free pizza, casual Friday's, and an employee of the month plaque would help?

I know your comment is a joke, but we already have that more-or-less.

I'm getting close to doxxing myself, so without getting into specifics... controllers often bring in food to share, and we dress pretty casually every day. There used to be a professional dress code years ago, but that was negotiated out by the union.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#398

Post by Aloisius »

ryandrake wrote: post #37

If you live in the Bay Area on the Peninsula, you'll be excited to know that the San Carlos airport and the FAA are in a pissing match over their air traffic controllers' pay, threatening to un-staff the control tower and leave that very busy airspace without tower control. The tower was set to go dark on Feb 1st[1] but it looks like there is now a temporary extension[2] keeping it staffed. Why these guys need to pla…

I'm confused.

Why would the FAA be involved in locality pay or staffing a Contract Tower? I thought the whole point of Contract Towers was a private company staffed and paid them and the FAA merely dispersed the contractual amount to the company.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#399

Post by [deleted] »

WalterBright wrote: post #362
legitster wrote: post #77

Everyone is going to make this about money or unions or etc, but my employer briefly worked with some ATC employee groups and I can tell you exactly why they are short staffed: - The FAA has strict hiring requirements. You have to be mentally and physically capable, and by their own admission less than 10% of applicants are qualified for the job. https://www.faa.gov/air-traffic-controller-qualifications - The trainin…

I still don't know why radar does not detect aircraft on a collision course. Why technology still does not track every airplane at the airport and flag runway incursions. Why there still are not cameras constantly recording flight ops at the airport. Why are we relying on accidental dash cam recordings? Why the cockpit voice recorder still does not record video.

[deleted]

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#400

Post by bluGill »

iancmceachern wrote: post #232
bluGill wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is statistically the same number.

Then we are looking at the wrong (meaningless) statistics. The while point of stats is to turn data into meaningful distillatios of trends so that we can act upon them. If plane crash deaths are increasing and its not shown in the stats, then we need better stats no?

Are you trying to "lie with statistics" or find a truth. Right now there is not data showing things are getting worse - this looks like random rare events. If things are slightly worse is will take a while to figure that out.
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