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iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

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Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#391

Post by sbuk »

hooby wrote: post #192
chenzhekl wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it is way too hard to cleanly separate the hardware from the software without introducing extra complexity and security issues.

Is it though? Looking at Linux and all the devices it powers (including most of the internet infrastructure) - it would seem that it is possible to do pretty good security on very open software that's as separate from the hardware as can be.

That has more to do with boundary defence than the OS itself, and those are more-often-than-not closed. The majority of infrastructure that you are alluding to is also heavily locked-down.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#392

Post by wiseowise »

icehawk wrote: post #114
eimrine wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Which ARM computers where you installing arbitrary applications on? What flip phones? They were all locked down on the carrier side. You're still not installing arbitrary applications on game consoles even now that they're running x86. Stop speaking like that please.

> What flip phones? They were all locked down on the carrier side.

You know, like things that were before iPhone and Android? That were running J2ME? Jar files?

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#393

Post by wiseowise »

aikinai wrote: post #58
superkuh wrote: post #14

Even if this is small progress the headlines and framing of the story are still doublespeak. Installing applications on your computer is the normal state of things. Walled gardens and not having control of your computer is the new weird thing. The word "sideloading" is a feudal concept and it's unquestioned use is dangerous for society. Properly stated this story title is, "Installing applications on iOS 17 might be…

Installing whatever you want on your computer is not necessarily the natural state; it’s not even how the industry started and it’s not how any other industry or devices work. I also prefer to be able to do whatever I want with my own devices, but pretending like it’s an inalienable right, or a natural state, or has no disadvantages is disingenuous and not helpful to the debate.

> I also prefer to be able to do whatever I want with my own devices, but pretending like it’s an inalienable right, or a natural state, or has no disadvantages is disingenuous and not helpful to the debate.

I own the freaking thing.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#394

Post by jeffybefffy519 »

Barrin92 wrote: post #209
nuker wrote: post #110

I bet you a tenner Facebook immediately moves out of EU App Store and will be sideload only, with all privacy related permissions required for the app to run.

Given that this is Europe where the GDPR requires consent regardless of how any app is installed you stand to lose that bet (which is why this is not the case on Android). The Apple cartel protection-racket framing makes only sense in a market without privacy regulations, in the EU choice and privacy aren't mutually exclusive.

Exactly!

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#395

Post by zacksiri »

ko27 wrote: post #383
zacksiri wrote: post #242

[flagged]

Is anybody else upset that people are actively making up stories to prop up Apple on HN? Most of what you said is misleading or false: > Here in Thailand banking apps fraud is rampant Citation needed (on the "rampant" part). > Most of the cases are found to be on android devices Even if it's true most of the phones in Thailand are Android. > clicking some link that installs some app Not possible the way you describe…

You can do some further reading here

- https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/2524469/mobile-banking-...

- https://www.nationthailand.com/thailand/general/40024972

Enjoy!

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#396

Post by jeroenhd »

simondotau wrote: post #112
pseudo0 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So take five minutes to set up the parental controls on your children's devices. The idea that we should eliminate the ability to run arbitrary software "for the children" is completely ridiculous.

Then don’t buy an iPhone. I think it’s ridiculous that we are asking the government to save us from our own choices. As much as you and I don’t like it, what Apple is doing is perfectly legal. And as much as you or I might support a change in the law, you’re not going to get my support if the legislation is truly universal and not just a narrow-band targeting of a single company for developing an ecosystem which reso…

> Then don't buy an iPhone

Then don't enable side loading.

And what Apple is doing is actually not perfectly legal. That's the entire reason they're changing their policies. It's not like they enjoy having to compete with app stores that offer other payment providers or allow things like emulators.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#397

Post by wiseowise »

aikinai wrote: post #126
onlypositive wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's the natural state and an inalienable right to modify or do with the things you own in the way you see fit. When was the last time you asked the builders association if you could remodel your kitchen? When was the last time you asked Honda if you could put new mags on your car? This whole idea that devices aren't owned when you purchase them is asinine and and insult to humanity. Your counter arguments…

> Of course it's the natural state and an inalienable right to modify or do with the things you own in the way you see fit. I agree. But that's not the same as the right to install whatever you want. It's not illegal to jailbreak a phone if you can and want to, but it's also not illegal for Apple to lock it down if they can and want to. That is and should be the default state. And it's the same for everything else, y…

> but it's also not illegal for Apple to lock it down if they can and want to.

That's the problem, it should be.

> It's weird you chose houses and cars as your examples since they're both highly regulated in the opposite direction you’re asking for computers. You're heavily restricted to what you can modify in either of those and, as far as I know, there are no regulations that specifically require manufactures to allow users to modify anything. You can swap out parts on your car if it complies with regulations, but there's no law that you have to be able to install software; it's locked down harder than smartphones. And just like smartphones today, you do own it and can do what you want (excluding other regulations), but there’s no right to installation; it's just a lockdown/jailbreak competition between you and the manufacturer.

That's what OS is for, it prohibits your from installing bomb instead of kitchen appliance. Repeat after me: Store. Does. Not. Dictate. Your. Usage. Of. Device.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#398

Post by Kwpolska »

wiseowise wrote: post #361
wildpeaks wrote: post #307

I wouldn't be surprised if Google pushes its own iOS marketplace: first by making an exclusive Blink-based Chrome to get people to open up their phones if they want to download "the real Chrome". Then there is little friction to get people to install more (because the hard part is already done), and they could even merge Android and iOS into a single marketplace for mobile apps.

> I wouldn't be surprised if Google pushes its own iOS marketplace: first by making an exclusive Blink-based Chrome to get people to open up their phones if they want to download "the real Chrome". Who even cares about Chrome on iOS? https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/mobile/north...

People who want their bookmarks and tabs synced between desktop Chrome and mobile?

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#399

Post by hayst4ck »

razemio wrote: post #326
hayst4ck wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> preventing people from doing something "for their own good" is never the right solution. https://www.osha.gov/etools/machine-guarding/presses/two-han... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockout%E2%80%93tagout > educate people on proper online safety measures so that they don't fall victim to fraudulent attempts. This is so inefficient and prone to failure. You think you're an expert, but my mom is not an expert. I don…

Your mum would be tech-savvy enough to enable "allow ipa from untrusted sources" buried deep in the settings? That's how it works on Android. I believe the main problem with android is, that there are tons of old devices not receiving any security updates. It's close to impossible, that my mum figures out how to install an untrusted apk on her Samsung s22. I guess what I want to say is: Having good security should no…

My mom can barely use the app store.

The side-loading debate is an indirect reference and to talk about side loading it must first be decomposed.

Question 1 is should Apple be able to prevent an engineer from running software they want on their phone? Probably not.

Question 2 is should Apple be able to prevent a layman from running software they want on their phone with effort? Debatable.

Question 3 is should Apple be able to prevent a layman from running software they want on their phone easily? I think so.

Question 4 is should Apple be able to prevent an alternative app store? Yes. Definitely.

So should side loading be allowed depends greatly on which question a person is asking and what the "sideloading" reference is pointing to.

Should I be able to choose what medicines I want to take without a pharmacist/MD? I have a hard time with this because I think I should be able to ingest whatever I want and I think I am more intelligent than the average person, on the flip side, I think if I were a pharmacist, I would say absolutely not. If you asked me if anyone should be able to take any medication they want without blessing, I look at the ivermectin debacle and realize "probably not."

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#400

Post by jeroenhd »

black3r wrote: post #364
canucker2016 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a personal-computer-user point of view, installing an app from any source is normal. For pre-iPhone cellphone users, your cellphone network operator controlled access to what apps were available for installation. This is was the most common, if not the only, method for cellphone app distribution. App makers (mostly java games) paid to get on that first page of downloadable apps. I'd add some references but Googl…

On most pre-iPhone cellphones you could install any .jar file, but there were 2 challenges: Finding a .jar file that works on your phone was the biggest. Games often only supported a single screen resolution and so there were multiple .jar files for each game and you had to find the right one for your phone. Also sometimes even if you had the right screen resolution the .jar just crashed when you started it without a…

I've never had much trouble finding compatible JAR/JAD files from legitimate sources. Usually, either your phone's model was auto detected to serve a compatible file, or you could select an appropriate version for apps that had resolution limitations.

Pirated JAR/JAD files were definitely hit and miss, but I don't think those are a great example.

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