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Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

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Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#391

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The narrative is very misleading. There are two directions to look at it: convincing yourself via a convincing story, or convincing yourself via a convincing calculation. The story they tell defies basic thermodynamic intuition, and seems to skip over all the parts that would put the narrative in doubt. The premise is that greenhouse gases absorb black body radiation from the surface. First of all, greenhouse gas is…

> Secondly, think about this thought experiment: a layer of pure CO2 gas covers the lowest layer of air near the surface. By how much would that get warmer compared to air? The answer is there won't be any difference. That's because the surface and the air near it are at the same temperature, so they emit exactly the same amount of energy. You've added an assumption in your question that the entire atmosphere is at t…

You skipped the part where I explicitly concluded that the effect comes from the difference in temperatures. I don't ignore it, I first understand the zero order - at uniform temperatures, there is no effect of CO2. Which leads to an understanding that if CO2 does indeed make a difference, it is the result of the temperature differences.

Then the part where I'm not at all certain about which direction the effect should be, is because while CO2 decreases thermal conductivity by radiation, it increases thermal conductivity by convection because the heat capacity is higher for CO2. Which is actually a much better intuition if you want to understand how does water vapor seems to have such negligible effect despite the fact it is a "greenhouse gas" and "absorbs much more heat".

You want me to point out bugs? There are like 20 different climate models. I've seen heat capacity being constant independent of pressure, temperature, CO2, density, etc. Not just heat capacity, but also other "constants". Not in a single place because the code is a mess, they actually have several different modules with different constants, so say the radiation simulation is extremely detailed mess that's completely unreadable, and the cloud simulation just starts all over with their own different constants.

Writing such code is somewhat human task, but reasoning about the magnitude of the mess that is going on there and which directions the errors will go is beyond the capabilities of anyone. It could be possible but not with the way it's currently written.

I'm sorry, but it is your thermodynamic intuition that's completely wrong. Equilibrium to you means "things stop moving". That... not how thermodynamics works at all. The reason that ordinary things look like they are "not moving" in equilibrium in your everyday life is because they do move, but at scales much smaller than you. Do the Brownian motion experiment.

And meta-stable states have everything to do with this, again this is your lack of understanding of physics, not mine. Given a thermodynamic system, there's expansion around the meta stable state or the unstable state over time, where you get the duration to reach equilibrium from the size of the fluctuations. The gist of the expansion is that what delays reaching equilibrium is that the fluctuations are too small.

There's infinite reasons why warming might be happening. Just the direction itself is a single bit of information with no significance whatsoever. It isn't worth my time arguing against a theory whose statistical strength is one bit.

The models don't have any significance beyond this bit or maybe two bits if you try to be generous about their abysmal performance regarding temperatures. They had some success at very high attitudes, but that's not surprising as these high attitudes are just so much simpler to predict and have no bearing on the rest of the model and the actual climate as observed on the ground. They excuse their shortcoming as the "weather", but if your models don't have any feedback from reality and testing around the parts that matter, why should I trust them ?

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#392
post #387

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I'm unable to copy paste somehow, I'm very sorry. http://climatecasechart.com/case/mann-v-competitive-enterpri... Edit: here it is When looking at the bottom of the climate change litigation database on Mann v Competitive enterprise, if you go read the second to last summary, it states what I was meaning to say. I think I read it a bit quickly - it states that Mann met the burden of proving that a jury could find act…

> if you go read the second to last summary, it states what I was meaning to say. I think I read it a bit quickly - it states that Mann met the burden of proving that a jury could find actual malice…etc. The to me is enough to indicate that the courts were supporting the suits as having some degree of validity. I think I was a little heavy worded in my prior comment. Assuming you mean the third to last document in th…

Thanks for taking time to write this up, I was sloppy in my reading - as I said, I lost interest in these suits quite quickly. Sorry if I mislead anyone, not my intention.

On the topic of Mann's science itself, I don't find anything in these suits to affect our view of it. Do you?

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#394

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Methane from organic sources is at a steady state since it oxidizes to CO2 over time. In effect, that means that keeping the same number overall of heads of cattle does not increase global warming dues to methane or CO2 since the methane they produce was fixed from atmospheric CO2. There may be global warming caused by CO2 emissions from cattle farming due to fossil fuel use, particularly feed production, but that's…

It would be if we didn’t have a billion cattle on the planet and climbing. There’s a cow out there for every 7 people or so and if we make more people they’ll make more cows. Cow methane is on the order of human population, so it matters.

That's not the point. The point is, the methane is constant at number of cows constant. Unlike CO2 from oil.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#395
post #242

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So, basically, to avoid eating meat which is what we have been doing for thousands of years, we have to eat all kinds of pharmaceutical products to compensate the deficiencies of a plant based diet. Are we accounting the costs of the production of these products in the comparison, and do we have conclusive, long term studies that suplements are as good as eating natural products? Apparently, the first suplements only…

> we have to eat all kinds of pharmaceutical products to compensate the deficiencies of a plant based diet. Vitamin supplements are regulated by the FDA as food. They're not drugs or "pharmaceutical products."

More correctly, they are almost completely unregulated.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#396
post #143

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If we're seeking to halt climate change, it seems quite reasonable to look at effective measures for that. If decreasing methane emissions from landfill or farming might contribute, it seems odd to write those things off. This is partly due to the way we silo investment in the west: there isn't an organisation that is a single point of coordination and can make the tradeoffs logically. So for better or worse, we shou…

We could slash emissions tomorrow by lowering the speed limit. We aren't because we don't actually care.

Or not doing business with gross polluters like china that wouldnt be a rounding error like cars.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#397
post #307

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I'd recommend watching this video if you'd like to know the more nuanced story behind climate change: https://youtu.be/oqu5DjzOBF8 I am not qualified at all to really comment on it but this did open my eyes to how confusing the entire thing is.

I know that video. The thing is, when you get to this point, it should've been pretty clear for any honest scientists that you shouldn't trust the narrative / story, you should do the full calculation, and be honest about how trustworthy the calculation is. The picture presented is as if the story is already enough (it definitely isn't), and the shortcomings of the calculations are not important, while the truth is t…

I have to agree, when money and interests like with the situation around climate change are involved its hard to do actual science, it just turns into a fucked up manipulation game.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#398
post #314
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fish is meat. But even if it weren't, it's still an animal so it doesn't matter when the discussion is about a vegan who won't eat them, either.

In the stores fish and meat are different aisles. And the discussion is about carbon footprint, not veganism.

In my store, the fish is right next to the butcher, in the same aisle...

Fishing is the primary source of plastic in the ocean, it has its environmental issues as well. That is before we talk about offshore fish farms, where the fish live in a cage their whole life, get fed subpar inputs, and generally resembles chicken farms. Not to mention that we have over fished the natural ocean to the point that the salmon food chain is in danger of collapse...

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The narrative is very misleading. There are two directions to look at it: convincing yourself via a convincing story, or convincing yourself via a convincing calculation. The story they tell defies basic thermodynamic intuition, and seems to skip over all the parts that would put the narrative in doubt. The premise is that greenhouse gases absorb black body radiation from the surface. First of all, greenhouse gas is…

Yet the warming continues at exactly the rate we expected since the 1980s, given the rise in co2 we are measuring. Strange coincidence, or maybe the fact that the code is fortran doesn’t say anything about the accuracy of the math.

I vouched for your comment just to tell you you're probably shadow banned, and I thought you would want to know.

(I didn't do it, it was probably done long time ago by a moderator).

I just feel bad looking at someone who doesn't know he's wasting time writing things nobody will see. Even if he only snarkly disagrees with me.

Also, if you engaged seriously, maybe they wouldn't ban you in the first place. I just don't believe in ignoring people who are wrong, only in correcting them.

Re: Methane may not warm the Earth quite as much as previously thought

#400
post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's kind of really, really important how high that "steady level" is and how fast we'd reach it though, no? (Update: In hindsight I'm not sure you were talking about methane emissions in general or about methane from meat production. Here, I'm focussing on the latter. Meanwhile, fossil methane is of course a huge problem.) As for the second part of your question: When it comes to meat production, we have already r…

> When it comes to meat production, we have already reached the steady state. Well yes but also no, we've reached a steady state. If we reduce meat production we would reach a new, lower steady state which would buy some more time.

> we would reach a new, lower steady state

That's right but your claim that this

> would buy some more time

completely ignores my (admittedly back-of-the-envelope) calculation. Please do point out if there's an error somewhere but until then I will stand by my point: Emissions from meat production – even with meat consumption as high as it is these days – are negligible in the grand scheme of things. We better focus our efforts elsewhere.

Besides, what kind of food would we replace the meat with? That food would also need to be grown, harvested, transported, and so on. In the end, we might not gain much in terms of greenhouse gases.

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