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Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

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Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#391

Post by pkdpic »

goodSteveramos wrote: post #350
standardUser wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that it's an unpopular position, it's that the argument is flawed and the point you're trying to make falls flat. First, you lump all of queer culture into one group, a false categorization without which your augment fails. Second, you assert that being in the overwhelmingly dominant racial group, the overwhelmingly dominant sexual orientation and the undeniably dominant gender should somehow be interpreted…

Counter to what? Minority groups are in charge of America so the majority traditional culture IS the counterculture.

Yeah this is all making me wonder why we're looking for a singular dominant culture to which there are one or more counter-cultures.

Pretty sure one of the canonized characteristics of post-modernity (or the post-cold war era if you dont like pretentious art terms) is pluralism.

This spicy thread seems to reinforce the feeling that the dominant culture has (and maybe always was) some horrifying unknowable ever-changing organic mass of competing counter-cultures.

Paraphrasing some dead social philosopher, history and cultures aren't bedtime stories or cartoon characters and we create dangerous false narratives, policies and hierarchies when we indulge the impulse to reduce them into these.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#392

Post by dnissley »

drewcon wrote: post #114

I’m going to get flamed for this but at this point the closest we’re getting to counter culture is the exact opposite… “Trads”. Young people with super traditional values doing exactly the opposite of most of what you just listed. No one would seriously suggest the trendiest most mainstream supported or glorified lifestyles (van life, queerness, gig work) are counter culture…that IS the culture; there’s very little c…

Here's one small "trad" expression I've seen that got some people riled up in the kind of way I would expect a counterculture to: the sqlite code of ethics https://sqlite.org/codeofethics.html

Long hn thread about it from some months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31886687

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#393

Post by autokad »

mrcrumb1 wrote: post #292
alldayeveryday wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another hard agree. I always get a good laugh when people in queer culture claim to be living a counter culture lifestyle. Meanwhile the US state department is flying the queer flag at its embassies around the world and using it to agitate foreign conservative cultures. I nominate being an unapologetic white male as the counter culture of our current time. Just watch how many downvotes you'll get on any social media…

[flagged]

wtf does unapologetic white men mean?

white men have to apologize for the color that they were born?

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#394

Post by teachrdan »

Dig1t wrote: post #343
drewcon wrote: post #114

I’m going to get flamed for this but at this point the closest we’re getting to counter culture is the exact opposite… “Trads”. Young people with super traditional values doing exactly the opposite of most of what you just listed. No one would seriously suggest the trendiest most mainstream supported or glorified lifestyles (van life, queerness, gig work) are counter culture…that IS the culture; there’s very little c…

People are scared to say this, because they quickly get labeled a Christofascist or alt-right something or other, but it's true. Trads are definitely the counter culture now. Tim Dillon made a joke recently, something along the lines of "The most radical non-conformist thing you can do now is wear rosary beads". I thought it was kind of funny, but also because it's true.

I honestly can't tell if this is satire or not. Catholics make up 23% of the US population. How can wearing rosary beads be non-conformist when Catholics are the single largest denomination in America?

An astonishing SIX Supreme Court justices are Catholic. Was there ever a time a countercultural group had that kind of representation in government? Were there ever six justices who were hippies, or beatniks, or hobos? If you sincerely believe that

> Trads are definitely the counter culture now.

may I invite you to name another counter culture that comprised a majority of the US Supreme Court?

The problem is that people conflate feeling aggrieved with being marginalized. The reality is that "trads" have plenty of representation and power, up to the governor or multiple states (like Desantis) and a former president. Self-identified trads may feel like they're exploited, or something. But the reality is they are a huge part of the population with ample political power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_in_the_United_...

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-matters/391649/relig...

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#395

Post by noobermin »

Jeema101 wrote: post #235
drewcon wrote: post #114

I’m going to get flamed for this but at this point the closest we’re getting to counter culture is the exact opposite… “Trads”. Young people with super traditional values doing exactly the opposite of most of what you just listed. No one would seriously suggest the trendiest most mainstream supported or glorified lifestyles (van life, queerness, gig work) are counter culture…that IS the culture; there’s very little c…

This comment is totally off topic. The theme of the article is pop culture and whether it's possible for alternative types of pop culture to gain traction anymore given the fact that most of the outlets are governed by algorithms that prioritize engagement - you're referring to toxic culture war politics. Did you even read the article?

The truth is that countercultures often had political bents to them. Recuperation as defined literally included denaturing the political content of something, preserving the artistic or aesthetic quality only.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#396

Post by erybodyknows »

noobermin wrote: post #339
drewcon wrote: post #114

I’m going to get flamed for this but at this point the closest we’re getting to counter culture is the exact opposite… “Trads”. Young people with super traditional values doing exactly the opposite of most of what you just listed. No one would seriously suggest the trendiest most mainstream supported or glorified lifestyles (van life, queerness, gig work) are counter culture…that IS the culture; there’s very little c…

I guess the question here is what does the words, "mainstream supported" mean? Most corporate brands and media try to appeal to certain minorities. Is this what you mean? The thing is despite the media focus, it still is the actual case that such minorities do not have actual power in society in terms of actual statistics, but the media is just a mirage, the reality is that certain disparities still exist, despite me…

Interesting point. I guess the question is: is power inherently related to culture? And if so, to what degree? If culture is the outline of the dominant group in a society, perhaps the counterculture are those who occupy and inhabit its shadow.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#397

Post by zamfi »

drewcon wrote: post #114

I’m going to get flamed for this but at this point the closest we’re getting to counter culture is the exact opposite… “Trads”. Young people with super traditional values doing exactly the opposite of most of what you just listed. No one would seriously suggest the trendiest most mainstream supported or glorified lifestyles (van life, queerness, gig work) are counter culture…that IS the culture; there’s very little c…

What you’re observing isn’t a lack of counter-culture, it’s a lack of monolithic culture, though. In different parts of the country, or even different parts of the same city, the dominant culture is different. Living a “glorified lifestyle,” as you put it, in NY of SF? Sure, no one bats an eye. In the rural south? Different story. On the other hand — white man with “radically traditional values“, whatever that means, in suburban SLC? You’ll fit right in. In the Castro? Sure, you might feel out of place.

Unlike the US of the 1950s, there is no apparent single pervasive monolithic culture — and thus there is no real “counterculture” that can exist in universal opposition to that dominant culture across the US.

But rest assured that to the people living lives incongruent with their communities — including perhaps any “trads” in SF, NYC, etc. — their lives will feel pretty countercultural.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#398

Post by AlexandrB »

GalenErso wrote: post #132
satao wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conservatism and traditional values can't be counter-culture since our society is based on them. It will never be counter-anything except progress.

[flagged]

> I believe in God.

I'm sure there are communities where stating this would be controversial, but the US public has never elected an openly atheist president. It's ridiculous to claim that believing in God is somehow countercultural.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#400

Post by godot »

So, I work in tech and I may pattern-fit too much, but I feel some of it is due to PM culture in modern business and product development. In short, product teams in companies look for the best performing variant of products and once it determines it, it doubles down there. It only makes sense in terms of ROI for a business. In the grand scheme of things when whole industries do it, we as a society converge toward something, whatever category of product we're talking about (TV, suburbs, content algorithms, etc.).
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