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Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

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Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We use dissolvable tablets (from Blueland) with all "natural" ingredients; can't vouch for how true the natural claim is, but we're happy with them and it's one way to reduce plastic; we also get their dissolvable tablets for hand soap, all purpose cleaners, glass cleaner, etc.

I tried the dishwasher tablets and felt like it didn’t clean the dishes as well. We been using the hand soap and other cleaners and I’m never going back on those. Maybe I need to give the dishwasher tabs a try again.

Maybe it depends on the dishwasher. We used them in our previous house and weren't as impressed with them but then moved and our new dishwasher works very well with them.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I wonder about sulfates, specifically SLS (sodium lauryl sulfate Dawn is my favorite dishwashing liquid of all times, SLS seems to be the first active ingredient[1]. What should I use instead? [1] https://dawn-dish.com/en-us/how-to/what-dawn-is-made-of-ingr...

Are you sick? No? Then what is the issue here?

Are organisms other than the individual in question attempting to survive unscathed where SLS exists in the water which goes down the drain and gutters and ultimately into watersheds? Your inability to recognize the issue upon narrowly imagining an individual human as the only potential victim does not eliminate it's deleterious effect on biomes and, by extension, humanity. Your invalidation is, itself, invalid. I hope this ability to rationalize away real problems by means of intentional ignorance is never applied to a human other than yourself, as others may recognize this as a genuine cognitive sickness. Please do not spread this illness.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#393
post #289

I have been having bigger bowel troubles ever since I started working in Google five years ago. They went away during the pandemic, but this week I'm sick with some kind of infection in my abdomen again. I never had that before starting in Google, and I always was able to pretty much eat what I want. Now I don't think it's the food, which is great (and I have been experimenting to see if I could narrow it down). But…

That's interesting. I also started having more issues after starting at Google. Particularly with dairy, so I chalked it up to lactose intolerance, but I didn't have those problems so much before.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same where I grew up. The town regularly won awards for far surpassing all the drinking water standards, even the super strict totally voluntary standards they additionally attempted to meet and exceed. Then I moved to Houston. After talking with some water treatment engineers, I only drink bottled water here. Was very hard to change my habits.

>Then I moved to Houston Kindly elaborate! I live here, too.

Y'all just had a boil water notice, no?

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might also be the result of shitty water treatment or softening, or even the state of the water source, water main and pipes in the building. Some water softening is done via agents like EDTA, which are also used heavily in soaps and detergents.

I have seen five gallon bottled water grow algae. It was from a professional water service to the office.

Yup. I once found out that I had been drinking water from a source that had mold growing all inside the water fountain's plumbing itself. It explained why I constantly felt like shit, given my mold allergy.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The non-pouch detergents disappeared ? I still see them everywhere. And a quick Amazon search for “cascade complete” lists gel as the first result and powder as the third.

The local supermarkets all stock literally one or two boxes on the shelf at a time, even though I know they have more in the back because as soon as I buy one it's put back on the shelf the next day. Something really funny is going on, I wouldn't be surprised if they had some contractual arrangement to artificially limit the amount that appeared in stock, to make it seem less appealing.

What's going on is that grocery stores have notoriously horrible pay, and nobody wants to work there.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#397
post #33
post #17

huh, I didn't know home and commercial rinse aids were any different?

Based on the paper it seems to be primarily an issue with dilution. They say home dishwashers dilute it to a rate of around 1:80000, the commercials ones are around 1:1000 - 1:10000. The problems they observed seem to happen in that lower dilution range.

holy hell; do they really need it to be that concentrated?

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#398

A reason behind mysterious endless baby crying is often soap residues left on milk bottles. Always rinse a bottle again before using it.

Citation needed. But also, yes rinse them after washing them, also use a baby bottle detergent instead of "full strength" or whatever. And then sterilise them.

Germs or hot plastic?

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#399
post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can smell detergent scent on my dishes after a wash and rinse, even if I don’t use rinse aid. Maybe my dishwasher’s rinse cycle isn’t very good: but if so I imagine that I’m not alone. I agree with what you’re saying here in terms of the raw findings, but I wonder if as a society we’re approaching this question wrong. Specifically: if I proved that dishwasher detergents contained a toxic chemical (say: arsenic), sh…

I agree, caution still seems justified, whenever we find toxic effects of materials we might contact daily it's worth considering whether the risk that this is a real and present threat is worth the benefits of having those things around. Similar story with Teflon, plastic packaging and utensils, clothing detergents, surface cleaners, micro-beads in face products, cosmetics, talcum powder, deodorant, etc. For this sp…

I think the gist of your response is that you think the standard should be “first prove it’s retained on dishes” before you remove a known harmful ingredient. I will reiterate that I disagree with this: the well-funded industry deploying the toxic ingredient should be responsible for proving that the toxic ingredient is washed clean. I feel this way for three reasons: (1) the industry chose the ingredient and thus should bear the burden of proving it’s safe, (2) the industry has more resources, (3) if this ingredient does prove dangerous, industry might select a new ingredient that is equally dangerous (and hence see point 1.) I don’t feel like your post provided me with much of a reason to change my opinion on this.

As far as MSG goes I’m not sure what that has to do with this issue. Clearly it would have been better if MSG had been well-studied early on, before concerns about it spread widely. This seems like an argument for investing in studies early. But even aside from that: this is not MSG. It’s a toxic ingredient that may or may not evaporate.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#400
post #238

We sought to investigate the effects of professional and household dishwashers Interestingly, detergent residue from professional dishwashers demonstrated the remnant of a significant amount of cytotoxic and epithelial barrier–damaging rinse aid remaining on washed and ready-to-use dishware. Is the reader to draw the conclusion that significant levels of rinse-aid are not found in dishes cleaned by home dishwashers?…

As I mentioned in another comment, the easy way to test for this is to take a freshly-dishwashed glass and fill it with water. Look for foamy bubbles that don't clear up quickly around the edge. Then rinse it thoroughly and try again. With most home dishwashers, I have seen evidence of leftovers.

It seems like the easiest solution is to just not use rinse-aid, since the study didn't seem to find any issues with regular detergent.
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