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Who cares about diversity?

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Re: Who cares about diversity?

#391

Post by handoflixue »

jjslocum3 wrote: post #276
jedberg wrote: post #180

So here's where I'm stuck: On the one hand I totally understand the objections to categorizing people based on things that won't affect their job performance per se -- skin color, gender, who they are attracted to, etc. But on the other hand, those people have been systematically discriminated against, well, forever. So the question is, where should the fix be applied? If the only people who have the skills to do the…

I mainly agree with the OP. While they don't come out and say it, most on the DEI frontlines execute on the idea that the fix to the fact that "those people have been discriminated against, well, forever" is not to do away with discrimination completely, but rather to discriminate actively against races/genders/orientations that haven't been discriminated against in the same way. This strikes me as faulty thinking. R…

Giving alms to the poor isn't "revenge-driven justice against the rich" - it's helping out people in need.

Refusing to give alms to the poor "because it would discriminate against the rich" seems obviously fallacious to me.

Surely one can by analogy reason that there are ways to support historically disadvantaged groups that aren't "perpetuating discrimination"?

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#392

Post by throwaway894345 »

tootie wrote: post #356
jedberg wrote: post #180

So here's where I'm stuck: On the one hand I totally understand the objections to categorizing people based on things that won't affect their job performance per se -- skin color, gender, who they are attracted to, etc. But on the other hand, those people have been systematically discriminated against, well, forever. So the question is, where should the fix be applied? If the only people who have the skills to do the…

You're not wrong but really the whole problem is cyclical. It has to be broken down everywhere. Diversity and anti racism in education is getting raked over the coals right now. Housing discrimination is still pretty rampant. Racists are winning elections. There's an unfortunate tendency to force compliance on those who can best accommodate it rather than who is more in need of regulating.

I posit that "racists are winning elections" precisely because of the broken race ideology that was meant to combat racism in the first place (not just in admissions and hiring, but all over our discourse). The stuff we do in the name of fighting racism looks like exactly the sort of thing one would do if they wanted to create a thoroughly racist society--get everyone to hyper-identify with their race and create separate and mete out rewards and consequences on the basis of race. Imply that fault and victimhood are racial (rather than individual) attributes. Deal only in abstractions and ignore intra-racial variance. Police people to make sure they don't explore ("appropriate") cultures outside of their own. Use "nazi" and "white supremacy" as liberally as possible--make sure those words have no power to censure actual, bonafide racists. Stuff like this.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#393

Post by koonsolo »

petilon wrote: post #384
koonsolo wrote: post #339

I do a lot of hiring, and co-hired a lot of my colleagues. I would never hire for diversity, and would explicitly refuse to do so. Why? Everyone in my team is hired for 1 thing: excellent developers. Nobody is questioning why they are there, and I would never put those people in a position where project managers have to question why anyone in my team is there, because of being a good developer or to fill up some stat…

> I would never hire for diversity, and would explicitly refuse to do so. Good. But in the end, if you end up with an all-male team then questions will be asked, and rightly so.

That is true. Surprisingly we have a pretty diverse team, so no questions there :).

But let's assume that wasn't the case and questions are asked. I think I would move a big part of the interview process to a standardised written test, so you have the results on paper of everyone that was screened.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#394

Post by petilon »

eweise wrote: post #386
petilon wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true. Take University of Washington for example. They ask for a "diversity essay". They define diversity as "diverse in cultural backgrounds, experiences, values and viewpoints." [1] [1] https://admit.washington.edu/apply/freshman/how-to-apply/wri...

Yep they do. Wonder what the chances are for someone writing about their conservative viewpoint as opposed to the applicant writing about their struggles growing up in a racially segregated neighborhood?

> Wonder what the chances are for someone writing about their conservative viewpoint...

I'd imagine it is about the same! Why? Because they don't really care about the essays.

Applications are not reviewed by "admissions people". They hire temporary workers (grad students, retirees etc) to review applications, and give them 8min per application. And that's for the whole application, and they have barely any time to read your essay. See story about UW, which I am referencing here [1].

The reason for making you write essays is just to obfuscate the reason you were denied admission.

[1] https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/a-look-inside-admis...

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#395

Post by tarboreus »

tptacek wrote: post #332
matthewrobertso wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you highlight where you made that argument the first time? I read your first comment as entirely concerned with tone and don't see where you are discussing lack of engagement with an argument.

It's a 127 word comment (not counting the snarky aside at the bottom), of which approximately 40% of the words make the points you're looking for directly, in a pair of sentences, one in the first paragraph and one in the second. I think you might have to not want to see them not to see them.

I'm an unrelated person driving by, and I actually scrolled up to try to find the sentences (i.e., the ones about an argument), and I'm not seeing them, either. I have a PhD in English, so I'm not totally terrible at reading carefully.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#396

Post by bumby »

koonsolo wrote: post #339

I do a lot of hiring, and co-hired a lot of my colleagues. I would never hire for diversity, and would explicitly refuse to do so. Why? Everyone in my team is hired for 1 thing: excellent developers. Nobody is questioning why they are there, and I would never put those people in a position where project managers have to question why anyone in my team is there, because of being a good developer or to fill up some stat…

I'm a hetro white male, so there can be ony 1 reason why I was hired

This is constraining the definition of protected class.

For example, if you're over 40 or a veteran, there could be the same doubt regardless if you are hetero and white. And that says nothing of non-visible disability status. The list is surprising long of protected classes so we'd probably do our organizations a service to not presume we know if someone belongs to one.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#397

Post by koonsolo »

green_on_black wrote: post #390
koonsolo wrote: post #339

I do a lot of hiring, and co-hired a lot of my colleagues. I would never hire for diversity, and would explicitly refuse to do so. Why? Everyone in my team is hired for 1 thing: excellent developers. Nobody is questioning why they are there, and I would never put those people in a position where project managers have to question why anyone in my team is there, because of being a good developer or to fill up some stat…

I was at a a highprofile tech company that everyone on HN knows about. Since I highly dislike bullshit, I straightup asked the hiring manager "does this mean the technical bar is lower for diversity?" Answer: "Yes." Now, there is some possible justification, in the sense that diversity may bring value to the team. After all, hires are holistic (communication skills, etc.). Especially if diversity of {race, sexuality,…

So how do these companies know the sexual preference of a candidate? They just ask in the interview?

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#398

Post by DiggyJohnson »

pseudalopex wrote: post #260
disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If ensuring that people from marginalized backgrounds get good treatment is important in third level education, would the same arguments not apply in a much stronger fashion to first and second level? I always (not an American) thought it was weird that all the focus was on university while the research would suggest that interventions at primary school level (and before) would be wildly more effective.

What made you think all the focus was on university?

The potency of affirmative action is a really good example. You seem to be dismissing his points when they are actually quite on the money.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#399

Post by cxr »

tptacek wrote: post #364
cxr wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read and understood this response. I've re-read and tried to understand your original comment criticizing the article. I do not understand it, though (except that it highlights the article's tone—critically). Who is the opposition to Huemer (the author of this article)? What does animate their opposition to his case?

Why don't you try to rattle some of them off?

Huh?

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#400

Post by handoflixue »

colpabar wrote: post #230
jedberg wrote: post #180

So here's where I'm stuck: On the one hand I totally understand the objections to categorizing people based on things that won't affect their job performance per se -- skin color, gender, who they are attracted to, etc. But on the other hand, those people have been systematically discriminated against, well, forever. So the question is, where should the fix be applied? If the only people who have the skills to do the…

> And frankly I'd rather have the black woman on the team to offer that perspective, especially for product decisions, because they might have interesting things to say. Doesn't this seem like a weird thing to say? How do you know that? Isn't this the definition of stereotyping? Is every question going to be of the form "as a black woman, what do you think about X?" And why is it okay to assume that white people don'…

> why is it okay to assume that white people don't have interesting things to say?

I mean, basic statistics: in a group of 20 white men and 1 black woman, all else being equal, the black woman is likely to have radically different experiences.

> How do you know that?

I think this because I routinely run into examples in the vein of "this cool facial recognition tech doesn't recognize black people".

There's obviously some very low-hanging fruit in terms of having even one voice who will look at the situation and notice stuff like that.

All that said: Obviously a white person can notice that, and a black person can miss it. It's just statistics. And a white person can still be diverse along a dozen other axes! If you want to sell your product to conservatives, you probably want at least one conservative on your team for the same reason!

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