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Long-term benzodiazepine use causes synapse loss and cognitive deficits in mice

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Re: Long-term benzodiazepine use causes synapse loss and cognitive deficits in mice

#391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

long term constant exposure to opioids will literally begin cause the pain they purport to solve. If you give a perfectly healthy person with no pain at all opioids for long enough they will be indistinguishable from a person who has an actual chronic pain issue. people should only ever take opioids VERY TEMPORARILY to get through surgeries or other such things. Opioids are not for long term pain management. Same thi…

Not correct, at least for some opioids. Nearly all opioids present the hazard of dose escalation over time to maintain their efficacy. Hence the dose escalation commonly seen with morphine, oxycontin, etc. Most opioids, in addition to interacting with mu-opioid receptors (the mechanism of pain relief), also activate NMDA receptors, which enhance pain sensitivity. So for most opioids, there's an adverse dynamic in whi…

I've no doubts that your comments are correct and what you say makes sense, but in the light of those facts why then isn't methadone substituted in place of codeine in low-dose opiate/paracetamol and other NSAID-like combination painkillers that are approved for OTC sale?

(If you read my reply to the above comment, you'll note the significant rebound effect I suffered from codeine in that it significantly increased the frequency of my headaches.)

It has only just occurred to me to ask this question after reading your comment and my logic for doing so is thus:

(a) Compared to certain other opiates, codeine isn't a particularly powerful painkiller, presumably this is why it's been licensed for inclusion in weak amounts in combination with NSAID painkillers in a number of countries (although I realize that in some places the rules concerning the sale of these OTC drugs have been tightened in recent years).

(b) The codeine 'rebound problem' (presumably caused by its activation of NMDA receptors) could be eliminated if codeine were to be substituted with low-dose methadone in these combination painkillers.

(c) As it has little or no NMDA activity, substituting low-dose methadone may alleviate or reduce some of the overdose problem from paracetamol overdoses (paracetamol poisoning occurs when people overdose on it in their attempt to get a bigger hit from the codeine component - or when they find that the painkillers are no longer working effectively and increase the dose above recommended amounts).

(d) Again, as methadone doesn't have any NMDA activity, its effective level could be increased in comparison to that which has been traditionally considered safe for OTC codeine preparations. In essence, for an equivalent level of risk/narcotic side effects, OTC low-dose methadone/NSAID combination painkillers could be made more effective than their codeine equivalents.

Thinking quickly through this some objections are immedately clear, the most obvious being that (from memory) methadone has a similar analgesic threshold to morphine (albeit its overall effectiveness is somewhat less for other reasons).

As methadone's analgesic threshold much higher than that of codeine (perhaps by as much as five times) it's traditionally said to be highly addictive in its own right and thus significantly more so than codeine.

The question arises that given its lack of activation of NMDA receptors how effective would it be in low-dose preparations. If there is little NMDA response one would expect little addictive risk at these low leveks. Of course, the argument against that is that the higher analgesic threshold would negate the benefits as consumers could actually get bigger hits by taking larger amount of these painkillers (that argument is used correctly with other opiates such as heroin which has an analgesic threshold of about three times that of morphine).

However, as you point out, this shouldn't happen with methadone given its lack NMDA action (especially so in small amounts).

Even if it did, would we be faced with methadone addiction kicking in first or would abusers of these painkillers succumb and die from paracetamol poisoning (as they often do now with codeine combinations)?

There's another option that is also worth considering in this debate and that's the inclusion of a small quantity of atropine in OTC preparations that include narcotic drugs such as with the anti-diarrhea drug diphenoxylate (aka Lomotil). The inclusion of atropine has proved highly effective in discouraging deliberate overdosage of diphenoxylate, as beyond a certain threshold level it makes one feel quite I'll.

No doubt, the wider use of opiates such a methadone is both a complex and very emotive subject. Moreover, it worries me that the very mention of the word 'opiate' is enough to close down sensible debate on the subject. We need a much more sophisticated and nuanced approach to the use of opiates than we have at present and I can't help feel that we're not getting it because of a silly non rational approach to the problem. Mentioning methadone for instance has widespread connotations with drug abuse and these are usually negative - even though the drug is usually used to improve the lives of people.

BTW, let it not be said that I'm advocating a wider more laissez faire approach to opiate use, I'm certainly not. What I want to see is more science and less emotion in the debate.

Moreover, if you look back on my old HN comments about such matters, you'd find few other posters whose comments were more critical over the opioid epidemic than I have been. In my opinion, the behavior of Purdue Pharmaceuticals and the Sacklers has been nothing short of criminal and the fact that they have been let off lightly is a national disgrace.

Re: Long-term benzodiazepine use causes synapse loss and cognitive deficits in mice

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

source/numbers of the number of prescriptions per year? https://www.hhs.gov/opioids/about-the-epidemic/index.html

https://www.iqvia.com/-/media/iqvia/pdfs/institute-reports/p... from https://www.iqvia.com/insights/the-iqvia-institute/reports/p...

thanks, remarkably linear def doesn't look like a stock market

Re: Long-term benzodiazepine use causes synapse loss and cognitive deficits in mice

#393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Benzo after drinking? Jesus...

I've heard of doctors taking benzos after drinking. It's a potentially lethal combination, as you can stop breathing in your sleep. However, if you wait until the alcohol has metabolized in your system and becomes a stimulant (when your BAC is about 0.05, or about 4 hrs after moderate drinking), a short-acting benzo in a low dosage can counteract the stimulant effect of alcohol and let you sleep. I have done it befor…

Yeah this is what I did. It was at least 2 hours after the last drink and I wasn’t super drunk to begin with. I always get terrible sleep after drinking, but it helped a lot.

Overall doesn’t seem to be worth it though.

Re: Long-term benzodiazepine use causes synapse loss and cognitive deficits in mice

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take phenibut about 1x/week, I have been for about 2 years now. I think it's generally pretty OK for me, though I've started to worry that it impacts my memory a touch, at the edges. Do not take drugs every day. For real. I don't want to victim-blame but it is wild that you expected to be able to be able to take drugs daily for weeks without withdrawals. As a rule of thumb, unless you intend to be on it forever (e.…

> I take phenibut about 1x/week, I have been for about 2 years now. I think it's generally pretty OK for me, though I've started to worry that it impacts my memory a touch, at the edges. You're addicted, you just don't know it. > it is wild that you expected to be able to be able to take drugs daily for weeks without withdrawals If you're referring to benzos, the doctor said it would be fine. If you're referring to p…

> You're addicted, you just don't know it.

I smoked cigarettes for ~10 years and I went to rehab for cocaine as a teenager, I am pretty familiar with addiction. I have never exceeded 1x/weekly phenibut and I've taken weeks off for travel, studying, etc, with no problems. I use some other substances recreationally with various cadences, set according to my understanding of how the body reacts to them (e.g. LSD never more often than every 2 weeks).

It's shocking to me that some people can smoke the occasional cigarette without getting hooked, but the fact of the matter is that the psychological impact of drug use varies quite a lot according to the (person + substance) in question. Nicotine is something that happens to appeal to me a lot more than it seems to appeal to other people.

> If you're referring to phenibut, I wasn't taking it every day

I'm replying to phenthrowAway, who said he used phenibut for "just a few weeks" before getting dependent.

Re: Long-term benzodiazepine use causes synapse loss and cognitive deficits in mice

#395
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My advice: Don't underestimate the substance, but also don't give too much importance to stories of people that overdid it and had a terrible time. People have been using Phenibut for long periods of time without getting dependent -- provided they space out the "Phenibut days" enough. Of course that requires some self-knowledge: If you are the kind of person who would have trouble keeping it to "not more than twice a…

If you have "Phenibut days", you're addicted. You may space it out, but your body is adjusting to it being in your system. It is that absolutely powerful. I was like you before things got bad.

That is just not true. Do you think that everyone who has ever taken a vicodin is addicted? They have "opiate days," after all.

Re: Long-term benzodiazepine use causes synapse loss and cognitive deficits in mice

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not correct, at least for some opioids. Nearly all opioids present the hazard of dose escalation over time to maintain their efficacy. Hence the dose escalation commonly seen with morphine, oxycontin, etc. Most opioids, in addition to interacting with mu-opioid receptors (the mechanism of pain relief), also activate NMDA receptors, which enhance pain sensitivity. So for most opioids, there's an adverse dynamic in whi…

I've no doubts that your comments are correct and what you say makes sense, but in the light of those facts why then isn't methadone substituted in place of codeine in low-dose opiate/paracetamol and other NSAID-like combination painkillers that are approved for OTC sale? (If you read my reply to the above comment, you'll note the significant rebound effect I suffered from codeine in that it significantly increased t…

Thank you for your thoughtful and thought-provoking post.

I can only speculate at the absence of methadone as a replacement for codeine pain meds. Two things come to mind.

One is the known respiratory depression hazard presented by methadone. This is complicated by the fact that methadone's clearance rate varies by more than an order of magnitude among individuals. In clinical practice, this means that the effective analgesic methadone dose must be established slowly. This isn't a problem in controlled clinical settings with patients who comply with treatment regimens. It's another story entirely in patients who are immersed in street drug polypharmacy situations. So there may be an element of caution, well-placed or not, that biases against use of methadone in place of other opiates.

The second is what you touched on - methadone (and all opiates, really) is a complex and emotionally-laden subject. Methadone has a poor reputation from its use in detoxing opiate addicts. Mentioning that you're being treated with methadone nearly never elicits even a neutral response. I think methadone's negative reputation is a serious impediment to its use in situations where it would otherwise be the logical choice.

I don't know about addictive properties of methadone. I know that my family member, who has been treated with methadone for chronic refractory migraine for ~17 years, doesn't show withdrawal symptoms when she misses her meds. Her headaches return, but there's none of the sweating, feverish shivers that characterize withdrawal from other opioids. She doesn't experience psychotropic effects, positive or negative. The principal side effect is constipation. In at least this anecdatum, there's no evidence of addiction even after a very long term of use.

I agree there's a shortage of rational thought and a great excess of emotion around opioids. I wish the emotional charge could be more directed to Purdue Pharma, the Sacklers, and the like, who have not only killed people in multitudes, but who also have compromised progress in getting effective and safe pain relief to the very many who would benefit. Sometimes, one can only live in hope of better times.

Thanks again.

Re: Long-term benzodiazepine use causes synapse loss and cognitive deficits in mice

#397

I was prescribed benzos because of sleeping issues, but I was also taking phenibut at the same time. After about 3 weeks of using large doses of the benzos every night, I stopped taking them, but a year later I still feel pangs of withdrawal sometimes when I get stressed. It took me another 4 months to get off the phenibut and a month or so after that before my sleep returned to normal. There were months where I mayb…

I'm kind of ridiculously qualified to speak on this subject. I've been taking phenibut off and on for over 6 years now. lol back when it was known online as the "crazy russian drug" lol. Before that I was on gabapentin. It's a type of drug known as a gabapentinoid. Phenibut has a reputation, but it is basically just gabapentin/neurotin/ or lyrica/pregaba(Honestly, you might have been able to solve your problem with a perscription to gabapentin. There probably is a cross tolerance.). I was also prescribed benzodiazapines for years. I quit several times basically cold turkey(don't ever do that). I didn't find benzodiazapines in any way psychologically addictive. They are physically addictive. REALLY physically addictive! I feel like all the issues caused by benzodiazapines went away with time. Short term, there were a ton of problems. The human brain is good at adapting to things. Benzos makes you tired and hungry... That isn't recreational to me. I was basically taking benzos because I was so miserable I didn't want to exist anymore. It wasn't recreational, it was self medicating... COCAINE is a recreational drug. I also dont get how people have problems with phenibut. You get a tolerance faster than any drug I have ever taken. You end up having to double the dosage almost everyday... I've had several psychiatrists literally try and diagnose me with bipolar disorder while i was on VERY large dosages of gabapentanoids. The "high" is the most chaotic thing I have ever experienced. Why would you want to feel like that everyday? Anecdotally, I had a very different experience from you. Phenibut also just does crazy, crazy things to your libido. Seriously... It turn's you into a sex maniac... It takes 5 hours to kick in... It doesn't even make since as a solution to the problem you were trying to solve! Take it and maybe you will go to sleep in 5 hours... I'm literally on it right now. Maybe i'm approaching things more from the perspective of an addict. I guess it's understandable that maybe you have had a different experience than me. I'm on seroquel for sleep issues. Maybe give that a try. At low dosages seroquel functions as an antihistamine not a antipsychotic. It's solved my sleep problems better than anything I have ever taken. I've had a very, very different experience from you. The Phenibut for sleep thing doesn't make since. I'm messed up on the stuff atm. I took it yesterday. 24 hours ago! Don't take it for sleep. Maybe take it at gym if you really need to kill it.

Re: Long-term benzodiazepine use causes synapse loss and cognitive deficits in mice

#398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

picamilon is banned? That's dumb, soon they will ban l-theanine and taurine? I really don't think you can get addicted to picamillon like phen or benz

Some supplements are basically unregulated medications. I found out the hard way that L-Theanine does not mix well with bipolar disorder. I suspect it inactivated the mood stabilizer I was on.

Maybe dont mix shit if you already have fucking BIPOLAR!

Let us that are normal and know what we are doing keep our drugs.

Yes, caffeine and l-theamine are drugs.

Re: Long-term benzodiazepine use causes synapse loss and cognitive deficits in mice

#399
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was about to say this. Do you also trigger while trying to exercise? I have had pretty intense panic attacks while trying to work. to the point of having dizziness, weakness, closing throat feelings, the works! Pretty shitty stuff. 15 minutes later, you are absolutely normal and feeling bummed and sometimes embarrassed as well. I would also not wish a panic attack to my worst enemy. What I'm trying to do now is short…

Have you been checked out for asthma? It could be exercise induced asthma. I used to suffer from these symptoms a lot, finally broke down and asked my doctor about trying an albuterol inhaler - which has nearly cured it, as long as I remember to use it prior to exercise.

Yeah, it's not that. Just plain anxiety. Can happen even without exercising by becoming overly excited or worked up about something as well. It sucks, but getting better each day.

If my anxiety is okay, or even if it's bad and I've taken a SOS medicine, I literally become infinite (in strength, endurance).

Re: Long-term benzodiazepine use causes synapse loss and cognitive deficits in mice

#400
post #353

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> Are you honestly going to claim that the many multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical industry doesn't have a financial incentive to lead people toward... Benzodiazepine patents expired long ago. Same with most SSRIs. If you're suggesting that pharma execs are conspiring to get rich by selling people their $4/month generic Prozac prescriptions, then I don't know what to tell you. I suspect your thinking is motivated mo…

So your shallow level of arguing and your love of throwing about the claim that people are saying "dangerous" or "harmful" things is a lame tactic to try to discredit someone - which then misdirects from their actual argument points. "The black box suicide warning is for the startup period and is a rare side effect." Right, so once you kill off the people who will have that "adverse event" then it's all good! Except,…

3 days and still no reply... guess I got'em!
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