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CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

theguardian.com

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Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#391

Post by StanislavPetrov »

halfnormalform wrote: post #343
cryptonector wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a very small step from this to disappearing and torturing dissidents at home. With The View calling for Tucker Carlson to be tried for treason by a military tribunal, I think we're approaching that point. Then when we get there and someone disappears (say, a colleague, a friend of a friend), some will think and even say "they must have done something". How do I know? Because that is what happened in Argentina du…

Excusing your whataboutism, it isn’t hard to argue he’s a foreign agent.

It isn't hard to argue a lot of things that are blatantly false and absurd because, unfortunately, in this day and age so many lack basic critical thinking skills and the capacity to make and understand logical arguments.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#392

Post by dc-programmer »

CyanBird wrote: post #351
dc-programmer wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything short of libertarian anarchy is a dystopia to these folks. You would actually think that people with a “rationalist” bias would care more about outcomes than elevating deontological ideals above all else but I guess not

"Outcomes"? I am sorry, what "outcomes"? Only outcome I see here is the hegemony of the planet abusing brown people simply because it suspected that they could have been dangerous at some point in the past so it tortures them to try and prove how "dangerous" they truly where, but ofc bc torture doesn't even work these poor sods end up with all sorts of health problems or brain damage in this case, and the cia ends up…

I wasn’t talking about the contents of this article, just taking the opportunity to pile in on the libertarians. Their should absolutely be consequences for this

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#393

Post by ganzuul »

nanna wrote: post #169
ganzuul wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, this is far, far worse. It shows the CIA is just as rogue as the Kremlin, and given their history it is fairly clear now that within these two groups there is extreme collusion. The Western intelligence apparatus has been hijacked by a force that is getting instructions from the reptilian brain instead of the cerebral cortex, meaning they are now the enemy.

> The Western intelligence apparatus has been hijacked by a force that is getting instructions from the reptilian brain The sheer wackiness of David Icke's Antisemitism (where 'reptile brains' are coda for Jews) never ceases to amaze me.

Why bring the Jews into this? What are you playing?

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#395

Post by 2xpress »

cwkoss wrote: post #170

If our country was just, everyone in the CIA who engaged in or authorized torture would be executed. I'm typically against capital punishment, but state sanctioned torture is such a far line past what is acceptable, I really think we'd be better off if we swept all these evil people off the face of the planet. Instead, they get cushy think tank and consultancy jobs as a reward for their evil 'service'.

Lots of times the CIA guys really create more problems than they solve, like the 1953 Iranian coup d'état, and plenty of other examples.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#396

Post by 2xpress »

Tepix wrote: post #134

Reading this makes me sick and doubt humanity. The ongoing Assange case comes to mind. A farce if i've ever seen one.

And isn't it ironic that a US citizen is currently laying low in Putin's Moscow, of all places, because he does not expect a fair or humane treatment from the US judicial system over his alleged "crimes".

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#398

Post by refurb »

throwawaycities wrote: post #390
refurb wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Summarized: - OP was dishonest by listing only a few countries that haven't signed on - OP argument was "everyone else is doing it", which is not very convincing - My argument is the ICC is no different than the UN or other international bodies, their authority comes from the most powerful members, so you can guarantee the most powerful members won't play nice when they're in the crosshairs (as evidenced by the curre…

> - OP was dishonest by listing only a few countries that haven't signed on I don’t think you know the definition of dishonest. One final time I list a number of countries that aren’t signatories to the Rome Statute, I never stated or implied that was an exhaustive list. >OP argument was "everyone else is doing it", which is not very convincing That is dishonest because that was not my argument and obviously inconsis…

For someone who claims to have gone to law school, you either don't state arguments well or you're very good at moving the goal posts.

One final time I list a number of countries that aren’t signatories to the Rome Statute, I never stated or implied that was an exhaustive list.

Let's see exactly what you said "Not exactly a list of countries championing human rights or state Sovereignty, the US included." Your argument (that the US is aligning with states that don't champion human rights) falls apart if other countries exist beyond that list that don't fit that singular conclusion. In fact, many countries that don't respect human right did ratify, so that completely blows up your argument. But you knew that, so that's why you only listed the countries you did.

That is dishonest because that was not my argument and obviously inconsistent with the fact that I gave a list of countries that “were not doing it”.

You said "When all other countries we'd consider the closest things to paragons of democracy we have signed it, it paints a pretty clear picture." How else does one interpret that other than "the US should do it because the other good countries are doing it"? It's a terrible argument - my parents would say "if your friends jumped off a bridge would you?".

If you don’t see where your logic breaks down, try to answer why the US is a member to all the other international bodies you claim are “no different” than the ICC, and the US is part of those other bodies but not the ICC.

It's because the US (like the major EU powers) make a choice - get a seat at the table or don't. Joining provides no guarantees that they'll adhere to the rules of membership. If the UN were to pass a resolution saying "Russia rightfully owns Poland and the land within the prior borders of East Germany". You think Germany will go "gee golly, we're a member of the UN so we better just hand it over". No, they'd weasel their way out of their obligations and defend their sovereignty. Just like the US and every other nation would.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#399

Post by cryptonector »

lesuorac wrote: post #389
cryptonector wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't that the exact opposite of disappearing? Asking for a civilian to be tried for treason by a military tribunal for saying... the same things that a government official has said, but in a way that makes the government look bad, is the same thing as abandoning the rule of law. We've only ever done such things during the Civil War, and even then Lincoln only suspended Habeas Corpus in limited places as needed. An…

> Asking for a civilian to be tried for treason by a military tribunal for saying... the same things that a government official has said, but in a way that makes the government look bad, is the same thing as abandoning the rule of law.z But that's not disappearing. Assuming the tribunal found him guilty and gave him X punishment everybody would know (Obviously assuming the tribunal found him not guilty then he wouldn…

> But that's not disappearing.

I didn't say it was. I said it's getting us closer to that world.

> Disappearing would be when ...

Disappearing is when a civilian gets taken (doesn't matter the time of the day, whether anyone notices or not), and the person in question does not get an arraignment in any open court nor any followup open court proceedings (e.g., trial), and where family gets no access to the person, with no way to determine their whereabouts and health or even if they remain living, typically for a prolonged period of time.

(Sometimes the family of a disappeared has connections and can get them released quickly, but most often the family does not, the authorities lie or refuse to say anything about the case, and the person languishes for years before being released unless they die or are killed during the time that they are held in this way.)

In other words: disappearing == unconstitutional denial of Habeas Corpus, often paired with torture and/or murder. A breakdown of the rule of law and constitutional order.

The English invented Habeas Corpus (to my knowledge anyways), and I suspect that they must have had some experience with disappearances during one of their 17th century civil wars.

When Habeas Corpus is suspended pursuant to the Constitution, and a civilian is arrested, and the family is allowed to see them during the time that the person is held, then that is not a disappearance, though the constitutionality of the suspension of Habeas Corpus may be suspect. When constitutional order is restored, the expectation would be that the person would be released or arraigned. Considering that in the U.S. Congress has never suspended Habeas Corpus, and that Lincoln did suspend it, but only in limited areas and during limited times during the Civil War, we should consider that the circumstances that legitimately call for suspending Habeas Corpus must be extreme. Certainly the current situation in Ukraine does not remotely call for the suspension of Habeas Corpus in the U.S., nor for anything like military tribunal trials for public persons who make their opinions heard. It is my fear that calls for the latter are a bad omen presaging the denial of Habeas Corpus.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#400

Post by harryf »

lesuorac wrote: post #301
harryf wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. And it came out Nov 6th 2001... not even a month after 9/11. Probably did a lot to shape an angry publics willingness to use torture as a tool in retribution. The writers of 24 (and later Homeland) talk about it here https://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/magazine/the-creators-of-...

Do you really think they finished all of the casting calls, set design, filming, and editing from Sept 12 2001 to Nov 6th 2001? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24_(TV_series)#Conception

No and I’m not saying it’s a conspiracy. They were opportunistic. I remember back then hearing an interview with the writers who were describing writing each episode of 24 on a weekly basis between episodes. And the article I linked to describes how they tried to use Homeland to reflect more seriously on the ideas around torture that first appeared in 24.

Ultimately they created a show that fed into the publics desire for revenge, post 9/11, and made a big success out of it.

What it leads to is the point I already made - the goal torture is oppression; to create fear and thereby obedience, not gathering information.

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