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CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

theguardian.com

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Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#121

Post by sdoering »

adamsmith143 wrote: post #93
sdoering wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the end, what you are asking comes down to some form of the "Trolley Problem" [0]. The critique towards the Trolley Problem can be directed towards your (very) hypothetical scenario as well: > In a 2014 paper published in the Social and Personality Psychology Compass, researchers criticized the use of the trolley problem, arguing, among other things, that the scenario it presents is too extreme and unconnected to…

> From a strictly utilitarian point of view killing one person to secure the survival of two others is a net positive outcome. But it feels morally more than wrong. Well of course all sorts of definitive truths feel unintuitive or wrong to humans, perhaps that's just a limitation of our brains. From this utilitarian pov the net positive outcome is the morally correct one.

Is there something like a "definitive truth"? Being an atheist, I would say, that this is an overly simplistic view. But that would be my personal take on that.

Utilitarianism isn't a rational choice. What if - in my extreme example, one of the two surviving people would have been Hitler?

Or even less dramatic, still contrived: What if the person being killed would go on and invent a cure against cancer?

You can't predict the future and these contrived examples only show, that (probably) every theory/philosophy can be brought to its knees by going to its extreme conclusions. So how to quantify "value"? How do we calculate the consequences of our decisions? We can't imho.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#122

Post by ganzuul »

mrtksn wrote: post #11

This is the kind of stuff that probably makes some people’s job down the pipe easier and at the same time undermines the Western civilization. Make no mistake, no US citizen outside of the political class benefits from this or other atrocities. The exact same goes for the surveillance programs. Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. The whole anti establishment movement rallies around stuff like thi…

Oh, this is far, far worse. It shows the CIA is just as rogue as the Kremlin, and given their history it is fairly clear now that within these two groups there is extreme collusion. The Western intelligence apparatus has been hijacked by a force that is getting instructions from the reptilian brain instead of the cerebral cortex, meaning they are now the enemy.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#123

Post by sschueller »

xyst wrote: post #110

"Enhanced interrogation techniques" is one of the reasons why the US no longer recognizes the ICC jurisdiction.

It never did. The Bush admin even passed a bill to pull anyone sent to it out by force in necessary.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_...

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#124

Post by Loughla »

FpUser wrote: post #68
Loughla wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good moral question, and really is going to come down to personal belief. I absolutely do not believe governments should be able to torture someone, for any reason, regardless of the consequences. It has less to do with the suffering of a single person, and more with the constant and consistent scope creep that enters every government program coupled with the ability for any and all governments to be full o…

>"This is a good moral question" No this is nothing more but a sleazy attempt to whitewash a crime

No, I'm not trying to do that. If you read my post, I plainly agree that torture is out of bounds entirely in any instance, ever, forever.

I'm not sure how to re-word that to clarify.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#125

Post by typon »

chmod775 wrote: post #57

Wow. Now that was hard to read. The people who can do these things need to be locked away for the good of mankind. Start from the top.

>Start from the top.

Precisely.

I think if the US wants to be a global hegemon without having a bankrupt/hypocritical liberal ideology, a good way to start would be with locking up Bush, Cheney, and the rest of the neocons responsible for the Iraq War for a life sentence. Obama, Clinton and the rest of the administration officials responsible for Libya, Syria, and the drone assassination program.

We don't even need to go that far back to prosecute all living presidents (even though in a just world, we would), but this would be a good start. Anything less means that US participation in international institutions like ICJ is just a farce (like how Saudi Arabia has a seat on the UN HRC)

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#126

Post by Loughla »

shapefrog wrote: post #25
Loughla wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good moral question, and really is going to come down to personal belief. I absolutely do not believe governments should be able to torture someone, for any reason, regardless of the consequences. It has less to do with the suffering of a single person, and more with the constant and consistent scope creep that enters every government program coupled with the ability for any and all governments to be full o…

Is it not already a moral slip to allow those 1 million people to die in a fireball to save the 1 person from torture?

No, because I am not the one responsible for those deaths. I am absolutely responsible for the torture, if I perform it.

It is a travesty and a tragedy, but morally, if I did my best within the bounds of the law, what else is there? If there is no rule of law, what's the purpose of the whole thing? If torture is negotiable, why not speeding? Why not kidnapping (which might be implied in the torture)? Why not eliminating the right to a fair trial (again, maybe that's implied)?

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#128

Post by deutschew »

nonrandomstring wrote: post #112
deutschew wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. There never was any moral high ground, the establishment were successful at making people FEEL as such. We are quick to point fingers at Nazis, Terrorists, Enemies yet the Western perspective is always 'we can do know wrong, if we did, its justified' which is exactly what the opposing side does. Once a subtle reminder that many supported Nazi ideals early in…

> There never was any moral high ground, the establishment were successful at making people FEEL as such. I understand what you're trying to say with respect to dirty hands, and not wilfully misunderstanding you. But, wrong. There _was_ a moral high ground. It subsisted within the group of people you claim were duped. Those were and always will be the people who count, who hold the _normative_ values of a society. Wh…

What I'm saying is pick up a history book or even read through various things America was involved in all over the world. It is anything BUT moral and yes the average American has no say in the matter in the decision making. So perhaps that absolves them of the sins of the state but nevertheless the blind masses continue to push away these ugly things under the closet with various political labels and in doing so they are implicitly approving these actions because it ultimately benefits THEM at the expense of other humans.

My point was try to see it from the people on the receiving end of pax Americana and tell me why the opposing sides reacted the way they have.

History is written by the victor and you simply don't get to hear from the losers. Therefore, there can be no absolute comparisons. You push somebody to poverty or vilify them, there is no exit but the desired outcome you seek. Once again, narratives is what shapes our reality, and the one that continuously virtue signals is the one that ultimately wins.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#129

Post by ganzuul »

xyst wrote: post #110

"Enhanced interrogation techniques" is one of the reasons why the US no longer recognizes the ICC jurisdiction.

And why the world no longer recognized the US jurisdiction on anything. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#130

Post by harryf »

pstuart wrote: post #82
harryf wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t need a treaty for something to be clearly wrong… and like wrong at any level. I mean the poster at the top of this thread immediately tries to make some justification… > This is the kind of stuff that probably makes some people’s job down the pipe easier and at the same time undermines the Western civilization. No! It’s just wrong! We should never do this to other human beings. Period. But you want a GOOD…

The show "24" was an advertisement for torture. I got sucked in at first because it was a bit of a twist and exciting, but soon stopped out of disgust when I realized what was going on.

Exactly. And it came out Nov 6th 2001... not even a month after 9/11. Probably did a lot to shape an angry publics willingness to use torture as a tool in retribution. The writers of 24 (and later Homeland) talk about it here https://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/magazine/the-creators-of-...
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