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Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

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Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#391

Post by chronofar »

bellyfullofbac wrote: post #145
silent_cal wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make - it's just advertising, and you're all acting like it's an announcement from a public health authority.

TBH, this feels like a libertarian mindset of "Everyone will try to lie and cheat you!". Why should they lie? If their data had something different to their press release, lying and then getting caught (e.g. by a whistleblower) would damage their reputation. If their data shows it's bad, as responsible scientists why shouldn't they come out with the truth to protect the general public, and say "We'll continue work on…

"Lie" is the wrong term. "Mislead" or "misrepresent" would be the more appropriate way to phrase it. On a topic as politicized as this with as little scientific literacy as the general public has you don't think they'd have anything to gain by fudging things a bit in their favor (ignoring a confounding variable here, drawing a misleading conclusion there) to distribute more shots? And you think it would just be clear cut that the general public would be able to discern such mistakes over the long term and hold them accountable? And you don't think companies often take measures just to boost their short term earnings/stock price even if it has obvious long-term deleterious effects? I'd say these viewpoints would be naive in the extreme.

Not to say they did commit any such errors here. Perhaps all such studies conducted by Pfizer are truly earnest and valid/replicable, I certainly hope they are. But it's perfectly reasonable to be skeptical of an organization publishing new science when that organization stands to profit greatly from the results. You may call that libertarian (though I'm frankly not sure how), I'd call it just due diligence.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#392

Post by the_doctah »

plainnoodles wrote: post #298
swayvil wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pfizer's reaping 33billion on vax alone this year. Three guesses where that money comes from.

Isn't that supposed to be how capitalism funds and incentivizes R&D though? There is market demand for a Thing, if you can figure out how to make Things then the market will reward that with profit. Honestly, for being the firm to develop a vaccine for a global pandemic, $33B in revenue sounds a little light? Apple made 83B in revenue just in Q3 alone and all they do is make phones that aren't even improving that muc…

Capitalism is about a free market, not collusion with the government to force vaccines on citizens.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#393

Post by ericmay »

jaspax wrote: post #330
mitchdoogle wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We get flu vaccine every year, what's wrong with getting vaccinated forever?

Who's "we"? I don't intend any hostility here. But I have never gotten a flu vaccine in my life, and it seems deeply silly to me to get a yearly shot just to cut down on the chance of mild illness. A quick poll of my acquaintances reveals that almost no one in my social circle gets flu shots, either. This makes me wonder whether the antagonism to mandatory COVID boosters is just an intensification of an existing divi…

Well.

The flu isn't always mild, especially as you get older. Depending on the year a couple hundred thousand Americans wind up in the hospital and about 10-20k die. [1] Compared to COVID-19 (hence the "politicization of getting the vaccine) it's not that bad but it's still not great.

Now what is the cost of getting a flu vaccine every year? Well, for most people it's 0. You walk in, get a shot, walk out. Arm is sore for a day or two at most and that's it. Then in getting the flu shot you reduce your own chance of getting the flu and reducing severity if you do get it anyway (which many people do), and you lower the risk for others who might be immunocompromised, susceptible to the flu, etc. Now I understand if you want to make the case that society shouldn't pay for it or that it's not worth it or w/e, but on an individual level there seems to be a ton of upside versus the downside.

So what's the downside of the flu shot? You're inconvenienced. That's about it. Unfortunately it's hard to measure the value of that inconvenience versus the upside, so, as typical human nature goes, you just value your inconvenience and then decide not to get a flu vaccine. Unfortunately it's just human nature. The same human nature manifests in all sorts of "I got mine" kinds of ways, ranging from global warming to opposing healthcare for all (why don't they just get insurance like me?).

If anything I think the dividing line isn't so much political (though it's now being used politically), it's who is willing to make sacrifices for the good of society. In the case of the flu vaccine here what I'm hearing you say is basically "welp, I don't see how it benefits me so I don't care". Is that not the case?

> it seems deeply silly to me to get a yearly shot just to cut down on the chance of mild illness

As someone who now just grabs the flu shot whenever it's available and I happen to be in a convenient spot the 1-3 days I might feel like crap seem like an awfully high price to pay for not getting a shot that takes 5 minutes. At least practically speaking. Idk. I don't like getting sick and the shot doesn't bother me at all.

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#395

Post by hcurtiss »

ohyes wrote: post #335
listless wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has always been my fear. I'm vaccinated (Moderna) and got COVID in September. I recovered quickly - about 3 days. But I'm worried that my body did not get to have a proper immune response and that as such, I'll have to continue get vaccinated forever whereas if I had just gotten COVID without the vaccine maybe I would be set. But I haven't found _much_ data to back up this concern.

You had the vaccine so you recovered quickly, if you didn’t have the vaccine you might not have recovered and needed hospitalization. I mean, the alternative where you don’t get the vaccine includes much higher risk of lung damage, nervous system damage and total organ failure. I think even if there was data to back this up (that somehow vaccine gives less protection than a real infection…), getting a booster every y…

Except for many cohorts, the overwhelming — near certain — odds are that they’d be fine after contracting COVID.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#396

Post by _ea1k »

hef19898 wrote: post #343
gaoshan wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good point. Hospitalization and death are really all that matter. People will be getting sick (to lesser degrees, likely, but it will still happen) from this for generations to come. What really matters is whether or not you are sick in bed at home and missing a few days of work vs sick in the hospital, occupying emergency health resources and facing potential death.

And case numbers are the best metric we have to predict deaths and hospitalization. Together with vaccination rates, age and so on. But overall, if cases go up, hospitalization will go up a couple of weeks later. Why would we not use that to enable to us act instead of reacting once it's too late?

Because as new variants with lower virulence emerge, and we see more breakthrough and reinfection cases, that direct link will become less direct.

We don't lock down for the flu because the virulence of the flu is lower than covid and we consider it acceptable. At some point, we'll pass those acceptability thresholds for COVID as well.

For some people, and regions, they already have passed those thresholds, as both severity and people's acceptance of different outcomes vary.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#397

Post by bavell »

ohyes wrote: post #335
listless wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has always been my fear. I'm vaccinated (Moderna) and got COVID in September. I recovered quickly - about 3 days. But I'm worried that my body did not get to have a proper immune response and that as such, I'll have to continue get vaccinated forever whereas if I had just gotten COVID without the vaccine maybe I would be set. But I haven't found _much_ data to back up this concern.

You had the vaccine so you recovered quickly, if you didn’t have the vaccine you might not have recovered and needed hospitalization. I mean, the alternative where you don’t get the vaccine includes much higher risk of lung damage, nervous system damage and total organ failure. I think even if there was data to back this up (that somehow vaccine gives less protection than a real infection…), getting a booster every y…

> I don’t think that your model of how vaccines work really makes sense.

I believe OP is referencing "Original antigenic sin" [0].

"This leaves the immune system "trapped" by the first response it has made to each antigen, and unable to mount potentially more effective responses during subsequent infections."

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_antigenic_sin

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#398

Post by the_doctah »

anoonmoose wrote: post #381
the_doctah wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flu shots are not required for any healthy individual

Neither are COVID shots, what's your point?

My point is that this glowing report is from the same company trying to collude with governments to force the vaccines. It may be "optional" for some people (not at my company if I want to keep my office job!), but they sure are trying hard to change that. And you know that, which makes your statement disingenuous.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#399

Post by BurningFrog »

mitchdoogle wrote: post #304
listless wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has always been my fear. I'm vaccinated (Moderna) and got COVID in September. I recovered quickly - about 3 days. But I'm worried that my body did not get to have a proper immune response and that as such, I'll have to continue get vaccinated forever whereas if I had just gotten COVID without the vaccine maybe I would be set. But I haven't found _much_ data to back up this concern.

We get flu vaccine every year, what's wrong with getting vaccinated forever?

It's a different vaccine every year, because the "flu" virus family mutates extremely much, for (at least to me) unknown reasons.

Re: Pfizer and Biontech provide update on Omicron variant

#400

Post by MadeThisToReply »

listless wrote: post #212
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wager it's more to avoid the "what, a 3rd dose?" reaction. "Booster" is more positive than "we told you it would be immunization, but actually it's partial and limited, and you have to do it again. Woops, now again". Especially since people have been talking about a 4th dose. In the context of distrust of the pharma industry, it would be easy to have the social networks to claim pfizer is trying to become the netfl…

Given how sick the second dose made me, I'm not keen on doing this every 6 months. Not keen.

My thoughts exactly. Why suffer through 1-2 days of sickness every 6 months to protect myself against an illness that I've already had and poses no threat to my demographic anyway? Sounds like the cure is worse than the disease. I smell a rat.
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